Optimal Attack Range

[skendzie]

I recently started the campaign (SU-25T). It is definitely not holding my hand through it haha. I get shot out of the sky at quite a steady rate. I think a big part of it I get to greedy and try kill more than I should in one pass.

 

My theory is using laser guided rockets as my AT

Target acquisition: Radar ALT 600-1000m, RNG 12km-10km

Attack Range: Radar ALT 450m-650m, RNG 8km-6km (Fire one or two rockets)

Disengage, rinse and repeat.

 

What I do:

Target acquisition: Radar ALT 600-800m, RNG 10km-8km

Attack Range: Radar ALT 350m-650m, RNG 8km-2km (Fire two to four rockets)

Disengage, rinse and repeat.

 

What I usually do makes me take damage (sometimes critical) and I my mission success rate is about 50/50. I end up getting many kills but I don't think I should look at it like that.

 

First question:

I do not like rockets and bombs as it requires me to get in close vicinity to the target (which is usually guarded by SAMs or AAA). I usually still with TV guided rockets to be strong AT. What is your usually loadout?

 

Second:

Is my theory of attack correct? Should I do something different?

 

Third:

What kind of attack doctrine do you use? One past; hit as much as you can...multiple long range engagements...etc.

 

Thanks! I'm really interested in hearing everyone's opinion.

Edited February 10, 2015 by skendzie

[Tombstone]

1: I don't like them either. Using unguided weaponry in such AD rich environment is IMO suicide. I use 2xKh-29L, 2xKh-25l, Vikhrs and AA-missiles. I used to load 2xS-25L instead of R-73 to maximize my AG performance, bu given their range they are probably not worth added weight.

 

2: If there are no radar guided SAMs you can fly higher than that. Point nose off the target to reduce closure rate, though this can cause vikhr to lose the beam, especially when firing at close range. Try to take out AD first, especially stingers. They are usually last vehicle in column.

 

3: Depends how much AD is left in the area. If there is strong AD presence, I usually do not fire more than one or two missiles per pass.

 

EDIT: To answer title question: Optimal attack range is maximum weapon range.

Also its important to destroy entire groups (columns, flights...) to score "result" points. For example, shooting down one A-10 and another one forcing to drop its stores and abort wont earn you any points.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Tombstone

[Andrei]

The answer is as always: "It depends". In real life you would get plenty of intel about your task and you probably would not be asked to destroy whole vehicle column equipped with SAMs and AAA or enemy base with 2-ship flight. So comments below are more for our simulated experience.

 

Before taking off or even launching the mission do study your briefing. What kind of targets do you have? What is the surrounding terrain like? What are the expected threats? What is the route? You can get a lot of information from there already.

 

Your loadout will depend upon all those factors. For instance if you know that you will be attacking a column of vehicles with 1-2 AA units it might make sense to take plenty of cluster bombs and a few missiles with decent range to deal with anti-air assets. Or, you can ask your wingman to handle AA and load yourself up with the bombs.

 

In any case the first priority will be negotiation of any possible direct threats to your flight. IF you are unsure about the situation and threats do scout ahead. Pick up the altitude and do a few high speed passes over the target area having sufficient altitude. Watch out for enemy SAMs. Altitude and speed will allow you to evade missile in comparison to your average run on target. If it looks clear, proceed to actual task.

 

Keep in mind, that usually there is nowhere to hurry. If your fuel reserves allow, it's better to make a few extra passes that are safe and precise. If you see that you are in a bad position for attack, break off and repeat. Put enough distance between yourself and target in between attack runs. And remember to pop occasional flare, just in case.

 

Hope it helps.

[panzerd18]

When there is AAA and IR SAM in the area I destroy one target per pass. I have been playing around with launching missile outside of their computed range and managing good success. You need to override the launch authorization and you will find all of them can still impact target by firing outside of their envelope. Too far away and the missile will lose its energy and fall short though.

 

Once you are sure all AAA and IRSAM is taken out I do two targets per run.

 

Set up towards the target with combat flaps and maintain a slow speed (this allows for a slower closure rate to target and keep you at a safer distance), keep IR Jammer engaged anywhere over combat area, start dispense of countermeasures before missile impact and when starting your turn away. Keep dispensing until you know you're outside SAM/radar guided AAA range.

 

The Su-25A is quite hard as it doesn't have the same stand off capability as the Su-25T.

Edited February 10, 2015 by panzerd18

[Dr_Arrow]

The answer is as always: "It depends". In real life you would get plenty of intel about your task and you probably would not be asked to destroy whole vehicle column equipped with SAMs and AAA or enemy base with 2-ship flight. So comments below are more for our simulated experience.

 

This is the problem, people tend to load all possible missiles for the Su-25T (handling afterwards like a dead pig) and destroy whole enemy battalions, failing in the process. I imagine Su-25Ts would be sent under CAP with radar SAMS eliminated by SEAD flight. T-Frog flight would then be tasked with eliminating SHORAD using guided munitions (2xKH-25ML, or VIKHRS only) afterwards Su-25s would saturate the area and remaining vehicles with unguided weaponry following clean-up operations by Hinds or Havocs. But that is more a problem with mission design, because people want missions full of action and overly difficult without proper planning/briefing, which brings often undesirable results in a sim :)

[Tombstone]

@Dr_Arrow: I think that mission design is more product of sim limitations (AI), than what people want.

[Dr_Arrow]

@Dr_Arrow: I think that mission design is more product of sim limitations (AI), than what people want.

 

AI is certainly limited, but I think that only a minority of pilots would like to fly 250 km to target, arrive on time, hit one or two ZU-23 emplacements and return home :) Other than that ground attack AI can do reasonably well if you know its quirks.

[Vedexent]

Original Su-25s with S-13 rockets can be very deadly against armor - if used correctly, so don't downplay rockets and bombs. After all, they're cheap, therefore you're much more likely to get supplied with those than fancy video guided anti-shipping missiles. :P

 

Also, rockets and bombs are "fire and forget", which means you can fire them, and break off (jink, chaff, flare), rather than having to hold the laser on the target - which means you have to keep closing and make a nice, predicable target for any AAA gunner which spots you.

 

Unguided munitions take practice - but they are really worth getting good with.

 

That said, the T-frog in anti-armor roles is really missing it's "sweet spot" if it's not carrying Vikhrs. 2 racks of Vikhrs (and maybe a pair of external tanks) and nothing else, and you can take out a lot of armor units before having to RTB.

 

On a plain "target run", with AAA in the mix, I don't pop off more than 1-2 Vikhrs per run, and only 2 if the targets are within easy skew distance on the Shkval. S-13s you can squeeze of in 2s and 3s - they have decent splash damage so you don't need swarms of them. S-8s you can use a bit more, but they are not much use against anything with decent armor. A-10 Karens will kill pretty much anything, at a decent range, but hold them to kill AA defenses outside of their range, but inside yours.

 

Essentially, get to know your weapons, learn their ranges, use case scenarios, and viable targets for them.

 

Dont get greedy. Make multiple trips :P The technical term for an over ambitious ground attack pilot is dead.

 

When anti-air defense show their hand, kill them fast.

 

Ideally, this works best with a non-AI wingman - which I realize is not an option if you are playing the single player campaign: someone can buzz the area just within range of AA defenses, and ready to climb hard back out of range. The spotter is on the lookout for AA lighting up, tells the bait plane how to break off, and notes the AA location(s).

 

Then you know where they are, and can use long-range laser guided munitions to kill them quickly outside of their range (unfair, I know, but war is hell). Of course, expert crews wont fall for this - they will wait until you are nice and close before killing you.

 

Rinse, repeat, and when you are reasonably sure you have eliminated the long range AA defense, mop up the rest.

 

Anywho - that's my $0.02 :)

Edited February 10, 2015 by Vedexent

[Dr_Arrow]

Great advice Vedexent!

 

I would just add only: when using S-8 rockets, use the OFP2 version, they have much better splash damage than KOM and are very lethal against medium/light armored vehicles, personnel/infantry/manpads and AAA emplacements. You can unleash them at 3 km distance and afterwards jink hard to avoid getting shot at. When using unguided rockets I usually start my ingress at 2 - 2.5 kilometers altitude (as per pilot's manual) at a distance of 6 km continuously popping flares (very important). S-24 and S-25 rockets are also very good against such targets, employed the same way.

[Vedexent]

I usually start my ingress at 2 - 2.5 kilometers altitude (as per pilot's manual) at a distance of 6 km continuously popping flares (very important).

 

I missed that one :) Yes - preemptive flares are wise.

 

I pop them off in rapid triplets, about every 15 second.

 

I'm also rolling over hard, and pulling hard G flat horizontal turns, as soon as I release rockets, or immediately upon impact for guided, popping flares fast.

 

AAA gunners seem to have a real hard time with hard-G horizontal turns.

 

For bombs, you have to pull up hard without lateral acceleration before you roll over and pull hard, or you can kill yourself with your own bombs (done it! :P).

[Tombstone]

Also, rockets and bombs are "fire and forget", which means you can fire them, and break off (jink, chaff, flare), rather than having to hold the laser on the target - which means you have to keep closing and make a nice, predicable target for any AAA gunner which spots you.

 

... and given the effective range of unguided weaponry you will need a lot more of those flares. ..

[Tombstone]

Other than that ground attack AI can do reasonably well if you know its quirks.

 

My experience:

Su-25T camp: Wingman wont survive his first attack run 90% percent of times.

 

Command post strike: Sweep/CAP pair of Su-27 engages pair of enemy Su-25, but is unable to finish them. On more than one occasion those Su-25 intercepted my flight later in mission.

 

Quick mission: Friendly fighters go after AH-64s and A-10s leaving me to wind up in dogfight with 3 F-18s.

 

I would say that AI is quite terrible, and personally I wont like to be at their mercy. Which attack aircraft essentially is.

[esb77]

The first step is to READ YOUR MISSION BRIEFING AND LOOK AT THE MAP!

 

Not bothering to see where known threats are is really bad practice.

 

Second, use bullseye calls. There are two ways to do this.

 

You can do it the hard way and learn how to pinpoint locations from the info in the radio messages, and plot the units called out on a map of the theater, which is what a real pilot would do.

 

The easy way is to set preferences so that the F10 map shows friendly units, units displayed in the briefing, and units that have been seen by friendly units. It's faster, and the computer figures out the geometry for you.

 

 

Assume that there are air defenses that your initial sources do not know about, and make your top priority dealing with them.

 

Here there are some options.

 

You can go in low, fast, use terrain masking, use countermeasures, and make single pass on the target before running home. This favors unguided munitions: cluster bombs, dispensers, and S-8 rockets in particular. The idea is to rain down a lot of munitions on a small area so fast that they never have a chance to get a good shot at you. You have to be very fast and very accurate to do this, but it's what might be considered the foundational skillset for a CAS pilot.

 

The other common way to do it is to use assisted visual recon and find threads before you get within range. You can use the Shkval as a magnifier, you can use the zoom function from cockpit view as an equivalent for using binoculars, and at night you can use the LLTV pod (which I suspect works much better than it should) to search for threats.

 

Once you think you've located them all, then take them out one at a time from maximum range with guided munitions. Usually Vikhrs or Kh-29's.

Confirm your air defense kills visually, and when you've nailed all of the buggers you can mop up your mission targets very easily.

 

Typically a group of ground units will have 1-3 manpad units, maybe a vehicle based IR SAM launcher, and 0-5 AAA units. They're often placed a bit behind and/or to the sides of the other ground units. Clever and cruel mission designers will trigger thing like MANPADS units getting out of vehicles when the group is approached or attacked, or will hide air defense units in trees or near buildings so that they're harder to spot.

 

The Gepard and Shilka AAA are sufficiently dangerous that they're worth taking out. The ZSU units and vehicle turrets are terrible at hitting planes, and for the most part can be safely ignored if you maneuver a bit. Vulcans are sort of in between, at point blank range they're deadly, but keep a couple of km away and it's pretty easy to avoid their fire as you have time to dodge before the shells get to you.

 

Some of my favored anti-armor anti-vehicle loadouts are:

 

2x Vikhrs, 2-4 cluster bombs, 2 Kh-29s. (You want to dump the Kh-29's early in the mission to lighten the load, I usually use them on vehicle based SAMs)

 

2x Vikhrs, 2 submunition dispensers, 2 cluster bombs.

 

2x Vikhrs, 2 Kh-29s.

 

2x Vikhrs, 4 S-8 pods.

 

2x Vikhrs, 2 S-13 pods, 2 S-8 pods.

 

4 submunition dispensers, 2 S-8 pods.

 

A full load of cluster bombs, single pass, ripple release CCRP mode.

 

 

So the ideal range really depends on your strategy. Typically in the most difficult scenarios you want to either be at maximum stand-off range, or as close and fast as you can get without running into terrain or being fragged by your own bombs.

[Dr_Arrow]

My experience:

Su-25T camp: Wingman wont survive his first attack run 90% percent of times.

 

Command post strike: Sweep/CAP pair of Su-27 engages pair of enemy Su-25, but is unable to finish them. On more than one occasion those Su-25 intercepted my flight later in mission.

 

Quick mission: Friendly fighters go after AH-64s and A-10s leaving me to wind up in dogfight with 3 F-18s.

 

I would say that AI is quite terrible, and personally I wont like to be at their mercy. Which attack aircraft essentially is.

 

AI when left on its own is quite terrible - particularly in AIR vs. AIR - I agree. I have created around 300 ground attack missions for myself and if you program ground attack AI using triggers, predefined targets and target areas, it can work efficiently. If you set-up their attack waypoint well (so they can see the target and are correctly position), define attack quantities (so they won't attack 20 times using cannon) define used munitions for each attack against selected targets or areas, AI in ground attack can be efficient :) ME offers quite good possibilities of AI programing, if you just leave there only general objective like CAS, GROUND attack or CAP they go nuts and do things like attacking SA-6 site with cannon :)

[skendzie]

This has all been very good advise so many thanks for everyone's input. I really need to be more patient and study the briefings more. Also, I need to practice unguided weapons. I really like their potential as a fire and forget weapon.

[Tombstone]

study the briefings more

 

Just don't take those briefings to literally, 50%+ mission briefings in Su-25T camp. have target waypoints +1 wrong. Briefing for example says attack targets at wp. 4 while in reality you'r supposed to attack at wp.3.

[Dr_Arrow]

One more advice - both vanilla Su-25 and the T model can toss, dive-toss bombs very well. Ingress fast (700-800 km/h) at 1000 meters - lock the target at 8 km and when the release timer starts to count pull into 10-20 degree climb and to 4Gs after bombs release while popping flares. You can toss bombs from 4-5 km while completely avoiding SHORAD. This technique can be combined also with higher altitudes and shallow dive to build up the speed. In fact the RL manual recommends this as only method of FAB-500 bombs release (1000 meters altitude level flight->climb). Diving attacks with FAB-500 were forbidden in the Su-25.

[skendzie]

I actually didn't mean the briefings, I meant the mission planner. I thought it was kind of cheating at first but I figure there short be intelligence before actually flying the mission so it's OK. Plus, there seems to be a lot of random spawning.

 

Also, that bombing technique sounds very promising, I will have to try get good with that.