Model Scaling and Visibilty

[fastfreddie]

DCS is the only game where I have to constantly use zoom in dogfights. You shouldn't have to use zoom in a dogfight to not loose sight of your opponent.

 

Don't forget to check your six ... oh wait don't do that because you will most definitely loose your target unless he's flying a totally predicable flight pattern with the sky as background. :music_whistling:

[SharpeXB]

Don't forget to check your six ... oh wait don't do that because you will most definitely loose your target unless he's flying a totally predicable flight pattern with the sky as background. :music_whistling:

Well scaling wouldn't solve that problem. I don't imagine if it was implemented that it would be in effect at that range. I agree DCS needs help in this regard but not with scaling.

[NineLine]

Well scaling wouldn't solve that problem. I don't imagine if it was implemented that it would be in effect at that range. I agree DCS needs help in this regard but not with scaling.

 

+1 I agree, I dont think scaling will help with that at all, scaling helps at distances where the aircraft is disappearing or becoming so small its hard to render than more than a pixel or two. If the enemy is on your six, he is much close, the problem is more about the aircraft blending into the background.

[Demongornot]

Unless your monitor is life sized and has real world resolution then the zoom view will always be needed to make it life sized. Depending on your monitor size the full zoom in might actually be close to 1:1. So zooming out is actually what's "unrealistic". It's also unrealistic to have blinders on and be unable to see outside a 10d cone at 1:1

 

And it can't be fixed unless using Oculus Rift or other VR Glasses, and using zoom rather than a smart scaling to compensate the distant object over visual range in the game and in range in real life is NOT a good idea. But it don't mean that smart scaling is a good one...

I agree that those people who unzoom and have this ultra ugly effect where everything is distorted how much this is way too much zoomed out : http://www.theoldergamers.com/images/screenshots/Screen_110311_185734.jpg

Or this : http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/9468/a10cnoeyefinity.jpg

IS actually unrealistic and should never be done, in fact after the bad auto unzoom effect when enter a new aircraft cockpit, if we don't press enter on numpad to get normal view back, this is also way too zoomed out, people do this horrible thing just for having cockpit instrument on view when they have no TIR or are lazy to move their head to look down with TIR...

Those can't complain about scaling issue...

 

But yeah binders effect depend on your monitor setup, this one for example won't have big problems with scale :

 

Scaling couldn't eliminate the need for the zoom because it would have to magnify objects around you to about 2x their normal size, assuming a desktop sized monitor, for the player to be able to see and identify them as they would in the 1:1 real world.

 

Zoom won't fix the scaling issue, zooming is a non natural thing that cause more trouble than it solve, for example those who never zoom have a disadvantage over those who always do, but zoom will always be here and non 1:1 scaling will also unless you use large screen to reduce this...

It should NOT be consider as THE solution against ingame scaling issue

 

 

The reason those infantry in DCS look small compared to the photo is the eye level that they shots are taken from. In the game it's high and in the real photo it's low. Obviously the low shot makes the people look bigger and vice versa. If they were both shot from eye level they'd look approximately the same size. The shots you posted of the ships have the same issue. You're comparing views from above that make the DCS objects look like small toys compared to real photos taken from eye level.

 

And no, as i said, one of the main reason why scaling is false despite the FOV is ALSO because games use two tricks to reduce hardware load rather than more optimise the graphic engine to handle 1:1 scale for everything...

The solution are to reduce the whole game size compare to real life, easy to see in game such as SimCity, The Sims or basically every RTS game.

The other way is to use a larger virtual camera like DCS do, as i say DCS World virtual camera have an objective which is even bigger than the distance between two human eyes, even larger than the head...

And this is ultra easy to check, take your camera and put it close as possible of any soldier's head, when you will pass trough, it WON'T even there fit all the screen, proof than what should be a regular sized head is smaller than the camera itself...

 

Even taking from below, a DCS screenshot will still feel way under scale than a real picture from above...

You think this is because you have in mind picture from bellow which are ALWAYS take from close, and yes this angle + the short distance make it feel bigger...

In tons of screenshot, whatever the angle, DCS Always look smaller than game with first person view or real life.

But now I give you a challenge, put an infantry on DCS on the edge of a roof, cliff or anything to take the screenshot from the same level as him, do the same screenshot in another game such as Arma 3 which still have a false scaling like every game but feel way less problematic, and do the same in real life, all 3 taken at the SAME distance, zoom or not, FOV or not, DCS will STILL look the smaller, perspective or not !

 

Because the camera use too big, and zooming only give the illusion that the lens get smaller and move back in the FOV cone, but its only the FOV that get close enough to fix better when the camera size, which still be false, if you multiply, divide, add or subtract a correct number by a incorrect one, whatever you do with the correct number, your equation will still be false...

 

When playing game like Skyrim for example, I don't feel at all bad effect on scaling that brake my immersion, and I don't need any zoom, Zoom is NOT a valid option, you will of course be able to keep using it, but this is not the solution, and it is boring and ultra immersion killer to always zoom and unzoom for a lot of peoples...

 

Scaling error in DCS will be fixed ONLY with a correct camera width, it won't appear at scale on screen with standard zoom level, but at least it will be already better, like what we see on Arma for example.

I have already try to explain it on the past but my English was way too bad in plus of my dyslexia and everyone thought that I mean to use Arma's graphic engine while I was talking about his scaling level.

 

Of course reducing camera size will mean more precise view and need to increase details, not on poly count since DCS already have tons of poly and will get even more under EDGE, but texture will need to fit, because details also participate to scaling effect trough optical process on the brain.

This is why this EDGE's screenshot : http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=108560&d=1417708206

Which IS taken for a upper angle give better scale level than what we see on actual DCS cause of less details even while taking from a lower angle...

Proof :

DCS from Low angle : http://simhq.com/forum/files/usergals/2012/12/full-848-47913-dcs_world_008.jpg

Outerra from upper angle : http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hCjtXMCVNlk/UF76dPmGIaI/AAAAAAAAEHI/bxTVYwJYPFs/s1600/screen_1348401549.jpg

And Outerra is not the best scale example but even here with disadvantage it still feel better.

 

So yeah fixing the camera is the ONLY way to really fix the issue, after that, it depend on the user, some might want to use zoom as you, other might prefer to use video projector or VR glasses for those who can afford that, and others like me will have to deal with it even if it will be better !

The game by itself CAN'T do more...And zooming could not be imposed to everyone as THE solution, this is your one and you are happy with that so it is nice that you have find a solution about it, but not everyone will be happy with that...

 

 

And in fact I agree with you about the fact that we should not touch the relative size of object, which mean no smart scaling where the object become bigger at longer range to compensate unnatural DCS's scale.

 

The issue is that people mainly talk about it because we can't see far as real life on DCS, you are probably against it because it will create a lot of mess and well this is true, and people want it to see at longer range while you talking about the general scale rather than the distance, two different thing, a single misunderstanding argued in the middle...

For most of the people scaling represent a distance issue while for you its an appearance one...

 

My Sprite based idea fix both problems, you can still use the zoom to have your more realistic scale feel and won't have the messy auto scaling that will only cause trouble of clipping of two object close each others at long range and stuff like this like advantage for those who already use large screens, and my solution will permit to see with a ultra light hardware load way over actual ingame visual range for object and match IRL one without needing labels !

Edited March 27, 2015 by Demongornot

[Ironhand]

From my admittedly limited time in real world light aircraft sitting in the right-hand seat, I was surprised at the ranges at which I could and could not see other aircraft of varying sizes. A lot depended on atmospheric conditions, time of day, etc.

 

What's striking in the sim is that I can pick up an aircraft's shadow much more quickly than I can the aircraft itself (as already mentioned by someone else). This is mostly because shadows in the sim have greater contrast against the background than the aircraft themselves do. When airborne in the real world, I would often see an aircraft as "brighter" than the background of the sky. It was almost like a glow that was larger than the actual aircraft itself which made it much easier to spot than anything we have in the sim.

 

Perhaps this is the difference we're actually talking about.

[McBlemmen]

DCS is the only game where I have to constantly use zoom in dogfights. You shouldn't have to use zoom in a dogfight to not loose sight of your opponent.

 

Don't you know real pilots always have their stick in one hand and binocs in the other when they're merged?!

 

:pilotfly:

[PFunk1606688187]

+1 I agree, I dont think scaling will help with that at all, scaling helps at distances where the aircraft is disappearing or becoming so small its hard to render than more than a pixel or two. If the enemy is on your six, he is much close, the problem is more about the aircraft blending into the background.

 

That doesn't even make sense. If the target within a reasonable visual range for a human eye is rendered at below a single pixel how is that not a problem?

 

If the target at a usable ie. wide field of view is harder to spot than it would be for a human being at the same range how is that not a problem related to the scale of the rendered pixels? How do you propose to fix a basic issue that the pixel resolution of the target is below what it would be to a human eye without forcing the human to use a narrow field of view that creates equal deficiencies in his ability to function?

 

How can there be any solution beyond scaling when the basic problem is the existing pixel resolution being smaller than it would be to a human being?

[SharpeXB]

Two in game examples of using the zoom view. As mentioned before I have this axis assigned to a toe on the rudder pedals. It's very useful.

 

In the Dora dogfight which is played without labels I don't have any trouble seeing the P-51 and do actually lose him at one point, but I'm able to require him again. You can see how much variable FOV is needed, not too much really. Videos always look worse than the actual gameplay.

 

 

In the A-10C example, you can see how much I'm using the zoom to just look at my own cockpit. Having the command on a toe axis keeps my fingers free for the HOTAS and works really well in this plane.

 

[VincentLaw]

I think the only people who argue against smart scaling are people who don't understand it.

[NineLine]

That doesn't even make sense. If the target within a reasonable visual range for a human eye is rendered at below a single pixel how is that not a problem?

 

If the target at a usable ie. wide field of view is harder to spot than it would be for a human being at the same range how is that not a problem related to the scale of the rendered pixels? How do you propose to fix a basic issue that the pixel resolution of the target is below what it would be to a human eye without forcing the human to use a narrow field of view that creates equal deficiencies in his ability to function?

 

How can there be any solution beyond scaling when the basic problem is the existing pixel resolution being smaller than it would be to a human being?

 

You are obviously missing the point, when you are in a turn fight and lose sight of an aircraft who is not more the 1nm away from you because his pixels blend in with the ground pixels, scaling wont help, you need to look at other things.

 

Scaling would be needed for the issue of when LoDs get so small at greater distances... there isnt one blanket answer to the entire issue.

[MacEwan]

Scaling wont give you real life vision because irl there are thousands of other factors at play (fov, depth perception, colours, atmospheric interference, light, etc...) What smart scaling does is compensate for the lack of real life vision by making certain objects bigger, thus making them more obvious, as they would be in a real life situation.

[SharpeXB]

I think the only people who argue against smart scaling are people who don't understand it.

Nobody yet has explained exactly how it works or posted any screenshot examples of it. So yes, I don't quite understand it. As far as it's been explained here only one other sim, Falcon, uses it.

[PFunk1606688187]

You are obviously missing the point, when you are in a turn fight and lose sight of an aircraft who is not more the 1nm away from you because his pixels blend in with the ground pixels, scaling wont help, you need to look at other things.

 

Scaling would be needed for the issue of when LoDs get so small at greater distances... there isnt one blanket answer to the entire issue.

 

Thats not logical. The basic issue is that at any range the other aircraft at a wider FOV appears smaller to us than it would to a real pilot ergo we lose sight of him more easily than a real pilot regardless of ground clutter or contrast et al. Certainly scaling shouldn't overcome natural obstacles to sighting but as it is the basic angular relationship between human eye and object is not adequately represented at any range in DCS with a usable fov.

 

Now, the question of scaling is about at what point do we bother to cut off the effect? Thats up for argument, but what isn't is the simple fact that apparent size is always wrong at a usable FOV and thats basic math, you know triangles and stuff. That we can still make do doesn't change that basic reality. Enemy aircraft at 1nm at near default FOV appear too small. Zooming in on them causes us to lose a lot more situational awareness and its harder to track that moving target at higher FOV due to the narrow field of view.

 

The whole ground contrast is entirely irrelevant. It has no mitigating influence on the correctness of the math.

[NineLine]

The point I was answering to was losing sight of an aircraft in a dogfight, has nothing to do with scale under 1nm... you dont know what you are arguing about.

 

Thats not logical. The basic issue is that at any range the other aircraft at a wider FOV appears smaller to us than it would to a real pilot ergo we lose sight of him more easily than a real pilot regardless of ground clutter or contrast et al. Certainly scaling shouldn't overcome natural obstacles to sighting but as it is the basic angular relationship between human eye and object is not adequately represented at any range in DCS with a usable fov.

 

Now, the question of scaling is about at what point do we bother to cut off the effect? Thats up for argument, but what isn't is the simple fact that apparent size is always wrong at a usable FOV and thats basic math, you know triangles and stuff. That we can still make do doesn't change that basic reality. Enemy aircraft at 1nm at near default FOV appear too small. Zooming in on them causes us to lose a lot more situational awareness and its harder to track that moving target at higher FOV due to the narrow field of view.

 

The whole ground contrast is entirely irrelevant. It has no mitigating influence on the correctness of the math.

 

This statement:

 

Don't forget to check your six ... oh wait don't do that because you will most definitely loose your target unless he's flying a totally predicable flight pattern with the sky as background. :music_whistling:

[McBlemmen]

Scaling wont give you real life vision

 

Nobody said it would. The point of scaling isnt to get real life vision , it's to counter all the things that detract from our simulated vision

[McBlemmen]

Sithspawn you make a very good point.. scaling wont help in a 1nm dogfight. Though that said, i am still of the opinion it should be considered. (I'm sure the devs already have/are considering it.)

 

Though ofcoarse if they could find a way to make the 1NM dogfight more realistic , and at the same time improve longer range visibility, and they can do it without scaling , that would be just fine for me.

[NineLine]

Nobody said it would. The point of scaling isnt to get real life vision , it's to counter all the things that detract from our simulated vision

 

Scaling is only going to fix when spotting things at greater distances, and even then, it wont help in spotting something against a ground when the textures are close to the same colours... especially considering LODs are generally basic shapes with basic monotone colours...

 

I can accept scaling will help parts of the issue, you guys need to understand it wont fix everything that is wrong.

[NineLine]

Sithspawn you make a very good point.. scaling wont help in a 1nm dogfight. Though that said, i am still of the opinion it should be considered. (I'm sure the devs already have/are considering it.)

 

Though ofcoarse if they could find a way to make the 1NM dogfight more realistic , and at the same time improve longer range visibility, and they can do it without scaling , that would be just fine for me.

 

Yes, thank you... this is when we need to start looking at different effects, reflections, depth of field, colouring of the LODs, etc...

[McBlemmen]

Scaling is only going to fix when spotting things at greater distances, and even then, it wont help in spotting something against a ground when the textures are close to the same colours... especially considering LODs are generally basic shapes with basic monotone colours...

 

I can accept scaling will help parts of the issue, you guys need to understand it wont fix everything that is wrong.

 

See post above ^^

 

Honestly i realise i'm "defending" scaling alot here, but i'm not dead set on getting scaling implemented , i just want A way to have more realistic vision.

 

People were discussing zoom earlyer in the thread, if they can find a way to just make aircraft "stand out" more at range , i'm fine zooming in to be able to identify it... problem is right now like you said aircraft "blend in" with the enviornment SO easily it's insane!

 

I don't know anything about graphic development or whatever you would call it , so scaling just seems like a somewhat simple yet reliable way to achieve what i want. Though for all i know EDGE has already done something to imrpove aircraft visibility and on day 1 of EDGE i will see everything alot clearer.. who knows

[NineLine]

See post above ^^

 

Honestly i realise i'm "defending" scaling alot here, but i'm not dead set on getting scaling implemented , i just want A way to have more realistic vision.

 

People were discussing zoom earlyer in the thread, if they can find a way to just make aircraft "stand out" more at range , i'm fine zooming in to be able to identify it... problem is right now like you said aircraft "blend in" with the enviornment SO easily it's insane!

 

I don't know anything about graphic development or whatever you would call it , so scaling just seems like a somewhat simple yet reliable way to achieve what i want. Though for all i know EDGE has already done something to imrpove aircraft visibility and on day 1 of EDGE i will see everything alot clearer.. who knows

 

And I am not against scaling, but if we put 100% faith that scaling will fix everything, we are all going to be disappointed :)

 

As I have always said, we need to see how things will look in EDGE/2.0 and go from there....

[SharpeXB]

Thats not logical. The basic issue is that at any range the other aircraft at a wider FOV appears smaller to us than it would to a real pilot ergo we lose sight of him more easily than a real pilot regardless of ground clutter or contrast et al.

Just making an object smaller on your screen compared to real life doesn't make it impossible to see. In the above example of "dogfighting" range scaling the objects would be especially awkward. There are sims that do a superb job at this detail mainly RoF and BoS and niether uses scaling to do it. The key in fact is contrast. A single black pixel on a bright monitor you'd have no trouble seeing. What exactly BoS/RoF do better I can't exactly say but if EDGE brings DCS up to that level I think that would be great. RoF is especially good, you can identify the type of aircraft from miles away it seems.

For an example of contrast imagine a plane being painted sky blue. On a computer it ends up being the same color as the sky behind it. But the sky is bright in reality so even a blue plane appears as a dark spot. That's the sort of thing that happens in BoS that's missing from DCS. Just look at comparisons of EDGE to the current game and you can see the better shading and contrast. I think that will help a lot.

[PFunk1606688187]

The point I was answering to was losing sight of an aircraft in a dogfight, has nothing to do with scale under 1nm... you dont know what you are arguing about.

Dogfights happen at greater distances than 1nm or less. The whole problem is that we can barely make out aircraft until they're basically right on top of us, and even then within 1 nm its much much harder to see than it ought to be. Its only at about 0.5nm that it becomes easy to keep track of something but basic real life tactical formations in modern combat exist at great than 1nm with merges in the visual being begun well beyond the formation spacing.

 

Even at less than 1nm you get aspect changes that cause great difficulty in guessing what the enemy is doing. Yes some aircraft are small but that makes the problem all the worse. Scale at less than 1nm is just as much an issue it just doesn't suffer form the "impossible" problem. The amount of information you can glean with a glance is still severely handicapped. Its not just about being able to see the enemy, its also about being able to see what he's doing.

 

If real life pilots considered the Mig-21 very hard to see, how hard is it for DCS pilots now? Flying in tactical formations as I do regularly when within 1nm at default FOV I have a hard time knowing exactly where the rather large A-10 airframe I'm flying opposite to is pointing when he's not broadside to me which makes timing formation maneuvers all the harder, and these are maneuvers I know well and which I know the outcome to. Compare that to a dogfight where you don't know what the enemy will do and now you can barely make out where he is nevermind where he's pointing.

 

Scaling is only going to fix when spotting things at greater distances, and even then, it wont help in spotting something against a ground when the textures are close to the same colours... especially considering LODs are generally basic shapes with basic monotone colours...

Yes it will help when spotting against the ground. The object will still not be the same colour, it'll be close and difficult to spot but a moving blob thats not the same colour as the ground is easier to see the larger it is. Its a moving object so the movement is part of what catches our eye. The size helps. Just because spotting gets harder against the ground doesn't make the basic angular increase in size ineffective.

 

As for LODs and all the rest, well part of implementing scaling should include looking at the entire way the sims renders things. The scaling can incorporate colour shifting such as making the blob lighting in the sun and darker in the shadows, vary things based on whether you're flying into the sun or away, etc, the same way it would influence the appearance of something in real life.

 

I live close enough to where I can watch airplanes taking off and landing and depending on the time of day its actually easier to spot an aircraft against the ground than against the air based on where the sun is. The effectiveness of scaling, while not a 100% remedy for everything which is not what anyone is suggesting it is either, will depend on how much work is put into it and how clever the devs are at implementing it. Its not as if scaling as done in other sims is a finished product. There's plenty of room to expand the capability the same way DCS has expanded what sims can do.

 

If DCS can break new ground on simulation it should be able to break new ground on scaling just as easily.

 

Just making an object smaller on your screen compared to real life doesn't make it impossible to see. In the above example of "dogfighting" range scaling the objects would be especially awkward. There are sims that do a superb job at this detail mainly RoF and BoS and niether uses scaling to do it. The key in fact is contrast. A single black pixel on a bright monitor you'd have no trouble seeing. What exactly BoS/RoF do better I can't exactly say but if EDGE brings DCS up to that level I think that would be great. RoF is especially good, you can identify the type of aircraft from miles away it seems.

For an example of contrast imagine a plane being painted sky blue. On a computer it ends up being the same color as the sky behind it. But the sky is bright in reality so even a blue plane appears as a dark spot. That's the sort of thing that happens in BoS that's missing from DCS. Just look at comparisons of EDGE to the current game and you can see the better shading and contrast. I think that will help a lot.

 

Nobody said its impossible. Thats not the argument. The argument is relative difficulty. At longer ranges impossible enters into it as pixels become larger than the apparent object however at nearer distances relative size of the object naturally affects the ease of spotting it. You can't argue that a smaller dot isn't harder to see than a larger one, regardless of special contrast against ground or sky or sunlight or darkness. And as mentioned above the smaller the object the harder it is to discern its aspect off and as such harder to use a wider FOV to make tactical decisions in a dogfight.

[SharpeXB]

Here's an example of why scaling isn't going to work in DCS

The two trucks are 2 miles away and yet they're in range to fire on

At the default FOV they're not visible but zoomed, which more or less represents a life sized image, they can be seen. If you want this scaling feature enabled, how does it affect this scene? Do you want targets between 1 and 6 miles scaled so they can be seen by the player from the default FOV? How would this work? The trucks would be out of proportion to the buildings in the background.

When I look at them, do they get smaller as I approach?

Which part of them do I aim for?

Can I hit the bigger target, is it easier to hit?

When it goes boom do I see a big boom or a small one? Is that scaled up or normal? Because that smoke is a good signal for a re-attack.

When they're scaled does the near truck block the view of the far one? Can I shoot through the bigger truck because it's not really bigger? What about the infantry standing next to the trucks, do they become giants?

If there was a helicopter in this scene would it get scaled too? How do you judge it's range relative to the trucks.

Does scaling mean the targets are the size the are in the second shot but the cockpit is the size of the first one?.

That would make the targets about 6x bigger.

 

In the 15 pages of this discussion nobody has posted a screenshot or video showing how this "scaling" would actually work, it's all just theoretical. If you want to convince the developers to consider this then you have to have answers to these questions because it's what they'll consider.

Edited March 28, 2015 by SharpeXB

[[DBS]TH0R]

I believe you are worrying too much over this. The above example is an excellent point why scaling or any other solution should be implemented to fix the inability to spot targets (not ID them, for that you'd still have to use zoom) with normal FOV. IMO those trucks should be visible in normal FOV, represented by a dot that may or may not look slightly out of proportion. An excellent compromise with wich most of us who voted here will agree.

 

Zooming is a poor excuse for already poor spotting ability we have in DCS.

 

 

In the 15 pages of this discussion nobody has posted a screenshot or video showing how this "scaling" would actually work, it's all just theoretical. If you want to convince the developers to consider this then you have to have answers to these questions because it's what they'll consider.

 

And at the same time you haven't tried it yourself in before mentioned sims. Also, see post #97.

[SharpeXB]

I believe you are worrying too much over this. The above example is an excellent point why scaling or any other solution should be implemented to fix the inability to spot targets (not ID them, for that you'd still have to use zoom) with normal FOV. IMO those trucks should be visible in normal FOV, represented by a dot that may or may not look slightly out of proportion. An excellent compromise with wich most of us who voted here will agree.

 

Zooming is a poor excuse for already poor spotting ability we have in DCS.

 

 

 

 

And at the same time you haven't tried it yourself in before mentioned sims. Also, see post #97.

True I haven't tried any game that uses this scaling, the only one that keeps getting mentioned is Falcon. Which other sims use scaling? But nobody has shown any examples of how this works in any of these games.

 

The video is talking about sub pixel rendering which looks like a good idea. The concept of just making all the distant objects larger is a simplistic solution probably from games developed 20 years ago and ones where out of scale objects aren't probemlatic. The idea of scaling objects in, for example, a WWII era visual range game would be ridiculous as it would make judging distance impossible. The future of this is larger better resolution monitors, better graphics, and even VR eventually. DCS does really need improvement in this regard but with a solution for the future not one taken from the past.

Edited March 28, 2015 by SharpeXB