stick forces-please make them optional

[NineLine]

 

Flying at low level, 500 Km/h, full throttle, I pull the stick very slightly and enter a loop, then freeze the stick position in pitch. As the speed decreases, the controls indicator shows the stick as being pulled more and more, until the plane stalls. But I haven’t done that! I haven’t pulled the stick more and more to cause the stall! My hand maintained the same stick position in pitch of about only 15% pull, insufficient to stall the plane in this condition.

 

I can reasonably well appreciate how much I pull on my joystick. How am I supposed to appreciate how much the plane’s stick is actually being pulled?

 

You should be able to get the sense of this by what you aircraft is doing, I am not sure how you are at a point where you seem to be describing you have no sense of what is going on with your aircraft now, if anything, I am more aware if what I need to be doing and where I should be holding the stick position...

 

You were saying that the control indicator shows more input as you slow down, but why wouldnt it, as the resistance drops, your controls will move more than at higher resistance.... even if the force you are inputing stays the same. Unless I am totally missing what you are saying...

[Yo-Yo]

I think David has a point. Consider the following example.

 

Flying at low level, 500 Km/h, full throttle, I pull the stick very slightly and enter a loop, then freeze the stick position in pitch. As the speed decreases, the controls indicator shows the stick as being pulled more and more, until the plane stalls. But I haven’t done that! I haven’t pulled the stick more and more to cause the stall! My hand maintained the same stick position in pitch of about only 15% pull, insufficient to stall the plane in this condition.

 

I can reasonably well appreciate how much I pull on my joystick. How am I supposed to appreciate how much the plane’s stick is actually being pulled?

 

If I pull the stick a certain amount, I’m expecting the stick to remain in that position as long as the necessary stick force is less than the maximum the simulation accepts the pilot is able to exert. If the speed is increasing and the necessary force is greater than the current one, so be it, reduce the elevator deflection according to that.

 

I did an experiment with the 109 in 1.2.14 and performed like 10 consecutive loops with constant stick position in pitch. In 1.2.15 this exercise requires constant attention. When should I start to ease the pull on the stick? And by how much? The end result is during maneuvers with decreasing speed at a constant joystick position in pitch the aircraft is quickly increasing the AoA.

 

So I return to the original loop example. At 500 Km/h I pull the stick about 15% of its full travel. If the stick in planes’s cockpit remains in this 15% pull position, the aircraft will perform the loop without stalling. But in order to keep the plane’s stick in the 15% position while speed is decreasing, I have to reduce the amount I pull on my joystick. The result is that, in the ascending part of the loop I need to continuously reduce the pull while the speed is decreasing, compared to real life where if I keep reducing the pull in the ascending part of the loop the AoA will get smaller and smaller while the speed is smaller and smaller and the plane won’t even reach the top. See the massive difference? The result is the required technique you use to physically pull on the joystick differs fundamentally from what you do with the stick in reality.

 

This is a bad habit to pull the stick far beyond the point you feel the plane not responsing to your movement at. That's the point.

[NineLine]

This is a bad habit to pull the stick far beyond the point you feel the plane not responsing to your movement. That's the point.

 

You can always explain better with less words than I can :D

[Kwiatek]

I think we should have this "progressive stick force" feature thing deactivated for force feedback joystick users. I mean this new feature seems very convenient for use with non ffb sticks but when you have ffb stick you can feel how much resistance there is on the aircraft's control surfaces and act accordingly. For me who has sidewinder ffb2, it feels unnatural now.

 

Got FF stick and have no problem with actual stick forces modeled in K-4. So nothing unnatural here.

 

 

 

I think David has a point. Consider the following example.

 

Flying at low level, 500 Km/h, full throttle, I pull the stick very slightly and enter a loop, then freeze the stick position in pitch. As the speed decreases, the controls indicator shows the stick as being pulled more and more, until the plane stalls. But I haven’t done that! I haven’t pulled the stick more and more to cause the stall! My hand maintained the same stick position in pitch of about only 15% pull, insufficient to stall the plane in this condition.

 

I can reasonably well appreciate how much I pull on my joystick. How am I supposed to appreciate how much the plane’s stick is actually being pulled?

 

If I pull the stick a certain amount, I’m expecting the stick to remain in that position as long as the necessary stick force is less than the maximum the simulation accepts the pilot is able to exert. If the speed is increasing and the necessary force is greater than the current one, so be it, reduce the elevator deflection according to that.

 

I did an experiment with the 109 in 1.2.14 and performed like 10 consecutive loops with constant stick position in pitch. In 1.2.15 this exercise requires constant attention. When should I start to ease the pull on the stick? And by how much? The end result is during maneuvers with decreasing speed at a constant joystick position in pitch the aircraft is quickly increasing the AoA.

 

So I return to the original loop example. At 500 Km/h I pull the stick about 15% of its full travel. If the stick in planes’s cockpit remains in this 15% pull position, the aircraft will perform the loop without stalling. But in order to keep the plane’s stick in the 15% position while speed is decreasing, I have to reduce the amount I pull on my joystick. The result is that, in the ascending part of the loop I need to continuously reduce the pull while the speed is decreasing, compared to real life where if I keep reducing the pull in the ascending part of the loop the AoA will get smaller and smaller while the speed is smaller and smaller and the plane won’t even reach the top. See the massive difference? The result is the required technique you use to physically pull on the joystick differs fundamentally from what you do with the stick in reality.

 

 

IRL you will never keep stick in steady positon in such manouver casue exacly you could stall at the top of loop. When you make loop with high speed initialy you pull stick quite hard but with loop progrees you constantly easy stick and at up invert postion even you push stick forward a little.

 

So i dont see a problem here if you know how to fly a plane. New stick forces simulation dont casue anything unnatural here and work according to real life movements ( needed stick movemement depend of speed and situation)

 

 

I think there is no better way to simulate heavy stick forces in sims. YOu have to accept these fact.

 

Maby some day someone will create force stick which could create the same stick forces like IRL but still for different planes it would be different forces so still it wouldn't be accurate.

 

So learn to live with these casue without stick forces similaton DCS was not realistic at all.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Kwiatek

[Crumpp]

it makes turn inconsistant and does more harm than good.

 

No, it replicates actual stick movement in an aircraft as Kwaitek relates.

[Crumpp]

It is true only for non-FFB devices.

 

 

In case of force-feedback devices force on the stick (hardware) should change, not the position of virtual stick.

I really think it should be optional.

 

FFB stick force per unit displacement is very tiny in comparison to the force per unit displacement required in a real aircraft.

 

A force feedback stick does not replicate the forces involved with any degree of accuracy.

 

All it does is give you an advantage of knowing when the aircraft is fast and when it is slow compared to a non-FFB stick.

[Nooch]

All it does is give you an advantage of knowing when the aircraft is fast and when it is slow compared to a non-FFB stick.

 

Yes but actually this is all we need. If you know how fast you're going, you know how much you should pull on the stick...

Because ffb gives you a feel of what the aircraft is enduring in real time, you can easily act accordingly and avoid overshooting the limits.

 

I think the main issue here is not that one is always better than the other, in fact it all depends on your setup and your personal preference. The real issue here is that for now we are invited to deal with it no matter what, we can't choose what we prefer. It would be reasonable if only one or two person wanted the option but here it seems that many of us do.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Nooch

[SlipBall]

I use my gauges to know how fast I'm going :P...I fly mostly by observing my gauges and that is constantly, also by ear and feel

Edited February 27, 2015 by GT 5.0

[NineLine]

Yes but actually this is all we need. If you know how fast you're going, you know how much you should pull on the stick...

Because ffb gives you a feel of what the aircraft is enduring in real time, you can easily act accordingly and avoid overshooting the limits.

 

I think the main issue here is not that one is always better than the other, in fact it all depends on your setup and your personal preference. The real issue here is that for now we are invited to deal with it no matter what, we can't choose what we prefer.

 

FFB is good for giving you more queues to what your aircraft is doing, it doesnt help simulate the forces acting on your aircraft, or stick. Its the same as FFB steering wheels, if gives you queues to what is happening, but doens give you a real world true feel of the amount of forces being felt...

 

So FFB is a bonus, its not a replacement for what is modelled here for sure...

[Crumpp]

The real issue here is that for now we are invited to deal with it no matter what, we can't choose what we prefer.

 

I agree the perception is the whether this is an issue of choice.

 

The stability and control characteristics are as much a part of these aircraft as the airfoil chosen or the power available.

 

It is not something that is open to change or choice and is very measurable and defined by math/science. The only that is not a hard definitive number is the pilots opinion of those defined characteristics. You can see that range and division of opinion occurring in this thread. :music_whistling:

 

Granted, that stability and control engineering was not well developed in most of the combatants in World War II.

 

That does mean we cannot measure and calculate the stability and control characteristics of these aircraft anymore than calculating turn, level speed, and climb performance.

 

Once those characteristics are defined, it is unreasonable and not in the spirit of achieving maximum realism within confines our technological limitations to make the airplanes personality an option to some players.

[Mordhar]

FFB stick force per unit displacement is very tiny in comparison to the force per unit displacement required in a real aircraft.

 

A force feedback stick does not replicate the forces involved with any degree of accuracy.

 

All it does is give you an advantage of knowing when the aircraft is fast and when it is slow compared to a non-FFB stick.

 

I quote myself (next post after one you answered):

 

It is not about FFB preventing me from pulling stick to unrealistic angles. It is about how informative process of holding stick with my hand will be.

[NineLine]

I quote myself (next post after one you answered):

 

It is not about FFB preventing me from pulling stick to unrealistic angles. It is about how informative process of holding stick with my hand will be.

 

But you should get that now with FFB with 1.2.15 like previous versions, so what would be the issue?

Edited February 27, 2015 by NineLine

[Mordhar]

But you should get that now with FFB with 1.2.15 like previous versions, so what would be the issue?

 

I am sorry, mostly I can understand English well but now it seems I missed something.

 

 

I am pulling my joystick and hold it still after reaching desired angle. I am absolutely sure I do not move my stick. But I can see “virtual stick” (the one in cockpit) moving on its own without any input from me.

No crazy 10G, no pulling to limit (in fact I use 50% range on Y axis and rarely pull stick to half of that). Still I cannot use physical position of my joystick to predict position of virtual stick.

 

 

It is much like flaps/trimmer on Bf.109 – you cannot directly control it with your input devices, you can only “command” virtual pilot to do so.

[NineLine]

I am sorry, mostly I can understand English well but now it seems I missed something.

 

 

I am pulling my joystick and hold it still after reaching desired angle. I am absolutely sure I do not move my stick. But I can see “virtual stick” (the one in cockpit) moving on its own without any input from me.

No crazy 10G, no pulling to limit (in fact I use 50% range on Y axis and rarely pull stick to half of that). Still I cannot use physical position of my joystick to predict position of virtual stick.

 

 

It is much like flaps/trimmer on Bf.109 – you cannot directly control it with your input devices, you can only “command” virtual pilot to do so.

 

 

If you hold your flight stick on one spot, of course the virtual one will move as forces on your aircraft change, but you should be able to tell that as you are flying and adjust your virtual stick accordingly. At least that is my experience so far.

 

As Yo-Yo stated, bad habits from older sims may creep in as FM's improve.

[Mordhar]

Well, I think I understand now. Thank you for clarification.

 

The problem is – it is not “bad habit from old sims”, it is “bad habit from actual experience”. I used to think if I hold stick in one spot – it remains in that spot until I move it. Now I need to learn do not trust what I feel with my own hand.

 

In game I reached desired AoA and hold stick (I do not need to move it further), but as speed drops “virtual pilot” thinks he can pull stick some more and he does just that – pulls it. I do not need it, but no one asks me – I do not control plane, I just suggest how “virtual pilot” should control it.

 

I liked DCS for ability to actually control everything. It was closest thing to real life experience in computer simulation. Now it takes course of “simulating pilot”, not only airplane. But I want to be pilot, not some imaginary guy inside my computer.

 

Looks like I need to learn how to play a game instead of trying to use real life methods.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Just tested 1.2.15 and the new stick force simulation :-)

 

Feels very good, probably needing just some fine tuning. It's after all pretty much the same technique used in IL2 BOS, as I just confirmed by looking at the virtual stick deflections corresponding to my joystick deflections at various speeds in that other sim.

 

I don't think that in the absence of realistic FF hardware we can get any closer to plausibility.

 

Great update!!!

[TAGERT]

So FFB is a bonus, its not a replacement for what is modelled here for sure...

Agreed..

 

I have been using FFB sticks since the first CH force feedback stick.. Which was, jezzz? 15 years ago? It wasnt even USB, it was the old game port with a serial port for comuncations..

 

After that I got the Microsoft stuff, but the 1st MSFFB and the MSFFB2.. Used the MSFFB2 for years!

 

Currently I am using the Logitech G940.. Enh! The early versions had biggie throttles, which is why I dont use the Logitech throttle or rudders that came with it, only the stick.

 

I even tried the Saitek X65F Pro Flight Controller, not a Force Feedback Stick but a Force Sensing Stick.. Didn't like it and went back to my G940.. But I kept the X65F throttle and have the Saitek Combat something or other rudders..

 

I still have a MSFFBII stick new in the box that I am keeping in reserve, in light of the fact that most companies that make FFB sticks end up canceling them! Just not enough customers for them! I only hope flight sims never stop supporting them! ;)

[NineLine]

.....

 

 

I just flew something similar to what you said you did, and really at no time did a I see a big difference in the virtual stick and the one in my hand... so I am not sure I am seeing the same issue you claim to be seeing.

 

When I slam the stick in an unrealistic manner, I could see some disconnect, but thats too be expected I think.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

I do not control plane, I just suggest how “virtual pilot” should control it.

 

^^and this!

 

with this implementation, we do not longer fly aircraft....

we only try to give information with our joystick to the virtual pilots muzzles...

 

in regards of stick input, this teaches totally wrong behaviour and techniques.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

This is a bad habit to pull the stick far beyond the point you feel the plane not responsing to your movement at. That's the point.

 

yes, and it was punished immediately earlier....now you are even forced to do what you suggest....yanking your stick all over the place like a maniac....

 

EDIT: also, why have simulations been invented in the first place?one reason was likely to teach correct habits.now the correct habit is implemented automatically more or less, and we do not longer have to care about stick position, or speed of how fast you move the stick...now, wrong habits are not longer punished anymore resulting in a stall for example,....it almost teaches wrong habits....

Edited February 28, 2015 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

i want a aircraft simulator and not a pilot muscle simulator....make the stick forces optional, and make sure the limitations are built in into the FM themselves like max roll rate or turn rate at several speeds, in the case the user has unchecked the stick forces. that way people can chose whether they want to pilot the aircraft, or whether they want to be a "force" commander....

and yet everybody would face the same limitations in aircraft performance..

 

 

there are things which just cannot be properly simulated on our home pcs without the proper hardware.and as long as you dont force us to all use the exact same hardware, this is clearly one of them....the only correct approach on this in my view is to make it optional, and make sure everybody still faces the same limitations.

Edited February 28, 2015 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

[NineLine]

^^and this!

 

with this implementation, we do not longer fly aircraft....

we only try to give information with our joystick to the virtual pilots muzzles...

 

 

This is just and extreme exaggeration, I'm sorry, but you aren't changing anyone's minds with this kind of reasoning...

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

it is not an exaggeration.your stick inputs at home do not longer resemble the virtual stick inputs at all....so no, you do not longer steer the aircraft.you are a "force commander" of the pilots right arm.

[NineLine]

it is not an exaggeration.your stick inputs at home do not longer resemble the virtual stick inputs at all....so no, you do not longer steer the aircraft.you are a "force commander" of the pilots right arm.

 

Sorry, that is nonsense... show me a track or some sort of proof you are no longer controlling your aircraft, I have no issues like this.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

the point that your joystick inputs are now not resembling the virtual joystick inputs anymore is proven i think.your request for a track is ridiculous in this case especially as my trackir hopefully still doesnt record me like a spy webcam at home.

Edited February 28, 2015 by 9./JG27 DavidRed