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stick forces-please make them optional


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  • ED Team
Yo-yo, I really respect you opinion and insight, but please look at the video. At the bottom of the screen there is displayed physical deflection on my joystick Y axis and in my opinion it's apparent that control indicator in game is moving between neutral position and cutting force limit and to reach it I have to move joystick to full deflection. So what I see on the video (and what I'm observing in game) is what I would call re-scaling. (Full range of joystick movement from neutral to max deflection is re-scaled to fit between virtual stick neutral position and current cutting force limit.)

 

I'm using linear curvature for pitch so it's not affected by custom axis settings.

 

I'm not saying that current implementation is wrong, I would just prefer CUTTING while what we have now appears to be more like RESCALING. At least it would be great to have option to choose between those two.

 

It is impossiblle... try to slow move the stick and watch the red indicator.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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  • ED Team
Ok, here you go, with decelerated time in game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aquUv7HU7g&feature=youtu.be

 

 

I really cannot help myself but I still see that red indicator does not stop moving until full joystick deflection.

 

I think, you misinerprete the nonlinear dynamics region. Try, as I wrote, SLOWLY pull the stick. Not slow the time but just slow move the stick.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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As I understand it, and maybe I'm wrong, if there was still "direct linkage" modeled between joystick and virtual stick deflection, then with cutting force limit at some point the red indicator should reach that limit and stop moving before players joystick reach max deflection. This is what I understand by "cutting". Is that right?

 

It's difficult to do for pitch because in order to get apparent or easy to interpret video. I need to keep the speed at the constant value where limit isn't too close to the neutral position (so that we can see the indicator) and at the same time I have to pull slowly the stick to extreme position without over-stressing the airframe or getting into stall. So if you don't mind I'll try to demonstrate my point on roll.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79RoTkxvTwg&feature=youtu.be

 

If my understanding what CUTTING means here is correct, I would expect that red indicator movement stops at limit before I reach full deflection of my joystick. It is not happening in my opinion.

 

All I'm questioning is the way how joystick movement transfers to virtual stick movement at high speeds. At least I believe it's always been in DCS that way, that as long as you were using linear input 50% deflection of player joystick resulted in 50% deflection of virtual sick in game (without limits). This seems to no longer be true above speeds where cutting force limit kicks in. Now player have to move joystick all the way to reach that limit, which leads to stick yanking at high speeds. For me this is not natural, at least that's my RL experience, that with increasing speed you dont need more stick deflection to get the same effect you just need more force to move the stick to that deflection but the effect is more or less same.


Edited by do.st
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  • ED Team

No, possibly you did not read my explanation for PITCH control. There is direct linkage between joystic and virtual stick up to F1 force. It means that you can control accurately up to 32 kgf. (Hang 32 kg weight to your wrist and try to write THANK YOU ED! on the wall if you think it's too low). The nest range is "I want to live!" range. You can use your both hands but this filter between the joystick and the virtual stick simulates low-accuracy and delayed control.

That's why roll and pitch are slightly different.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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No, possibly you did not read my explanation for PITCH control. There is direct linkage between joystic and virtual stick up to F1 force. It means that you can control accurately up to 32 kgf. (Hang 32 kg weight to your wrist and try to write THANK YOU ED! on the wall if you think it's too low). The nest range is "I want to live!" range. You can use your both hands but this filter between the joystick and the virtual stick simulates low-accuracy and delayed control.

That's why roll and pitch are slightly different.

 

I'm not saying anything against 32 kgf limit.

 

As for the behavior. Ok, then it's explained. I thought that limit is a "hard stop" beyond which there is no movement of virtual stick at all. If player can overcome 32 kgf "soft stop" at the cost of control accuracy it probably explains the "rubber stick" feeling at high speeds in 109.

 

I'm wondering if giving a player an option to disable filtered/inacurate "I want to live!" range and having just direct linkage zone up to 32 kgf "hard stop" would improve the user experience for those who want to get rid of "rubber stick" feeling ... Probably silly idea, who would willingly limit control range of own plane :).

 

Anyway, for me -- case closed. Thank you for your explanation, time and patience :).

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I hope also that some spin behaviour changes will be also tweaked in Fw 190 D-9 ;)

 

I don't think you have tested this since the update before making your statement. Spin behavior is spot on in the Dora and I suspect all other aircraft too.

 

Yo-Yo said in the spin behavior thread that they were tweaking the FM. Let's not continue complaints that do not exist.

 

The devs take the time to communicate with us. Let's return that respect for us showing them respect to take them at their word. Propeller effects are also appropriate. Notice in the track I slow the aircraft down to the region of reverse command and apply power. The aircraft climbs appropriately. The power fluctuations in the track are done to gauge the yaw moments from the propeller effects. In the approach to stall, you will also see rudder input required increases.

 

In fact, the spin behaviors are the most realistic I have ever seen on any of these games. Control input feels appropriate and the aircraft have the feel of a real aircraft at spin entry. You can sense the moment the aircraft "dumps" into the spin. The spin also has distinctive phases as well as appropriate power on/off effects.

 

Two "snap rolls" were also done. The first is intentionally botched and results in an incipient spin. The second the aircraft responds beautifully. It actually took me by surprise which is why my recovery is not so good, LOL.


Edited by Crumpp

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

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I'm ok with the new stick forces IF this will apply to ALL aircraft that should be affected by said forces, also it seems that the rudder in the 109 was not affected by the new forces in my few flights yesterday, again if this is the direction the FM is going the changes need to be consistent across the board.

 

It's already applied to fw 190 and p51 too. Fly around 700km/h for example and do barrel rool and you'll see. And as YoYo said, rudder will be affected too once they'll find proper values to it.

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I haven't tested them yet, but that's good to know.

 

Yo-Yo said this will affect all AC to a varying degree based on their RL behaviour.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2329862&postcount=59

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2329646#post2329646

 

As for myself, yeah, I'm all for it.

The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of.

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Yep. And is happens that P-51 has very good positive controls and is very stable at high speed. So don't panic if it will outperform the 109 vastly, aurora.

 

The190 is also superior.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies.

 

My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS.

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Im aware what they are good at and dont get sucked into those kinds of fights, you said vastly outperform.... I dont fight them on their terms, so like I said I still down them easily, Im all for realistic control surfaces, bc it doesnt change how I play, and it adds to realism if you fall for a dive trap. :doh:

 

You wanted to tests them. I just wanted to warn you about their flight characteristics. I wasn't speaking about your piloting skills. Hence the:doh:

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies.

 

My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS.

My channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA

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You wanted to tests them. I just wanted to warn you about their flight characteristics. I wasn't speaking about your piloting skills. Hence the:doh:

 

ok how about this, I am aware of all 3 aircrafts strengths IRL. what I meant by test was to verify my self of the new control stiffening on each plane. you needn't tell me realistically what to expect of each aircraft as im already am aware. :joystick:

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I really like the added control stiffness at high speed. Rudder isn't affected, too sensitive at high speed. Hopefully they will correct it in the future.

 

I also noticed that during high g turns, if you overstress the airframe, the tailwheel will be pushed out. Nice detail:thumbup:

 

I don't like the new landing gear animation, both wheels up/down at the same time and way too fast. It was far more realistic in the previous version, like the real 109 landing gear:

Both wheels retracted/raised asynchronously.

.

Please go back to that.

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I don't like the new landing gear animation, both wheels up/down at the same time and way too fast. It was far more realistic in the previous version, like the real 109 landing gear:

Both wheels retracted/raised asynchronously.

.

Please go back to that.

 

 

I would like to see it return to that aswell

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Hopefully they will correct it in the future.

 

According to Yo-Yo this will be corrected after getting hold of pertinent data - there're details still missing if I understood correctly.

The DCS Mi-8MTV2. The best aviational BBW experience you could ever dream of.

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It is converging towards perfection :) has happened with the p51d.

 

I remember that from the earliest versions of the p51d, the aircraft module which actually got me to DCS, there was a noticeable track of evolving versions, each one integrating fine tuning in different areas. It is still being tuned ( just happened in the latest update! ), but it's probably the most remarkable of the 3 ww2 modules we now have in DCS.

 

Yesterday, after coming from a nice glider workshop, where we had to fight x-wind and turbulence during the whole circuit ( it was meant to be training for operations under extreme weather, and the weather really helped! ), I came home and started DCS, and picked the K4... I just regret not yet having turbulence and variable winds modeled in DCS in a more intense way :-) BUT! I remembered my fight with the stick on the glider, when in the K4 I reached the 700 km/h mark and wanted to roll fast :)

 

Anyway, after the same filters are applied to the rudder, and fine-tuned for the K4 and the Fw-190, it will get only better :)


Edited by jcomm

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Well, i just tested 109 first time after patch and i must say i have mixed feelings of it.

 

While it is clearly step to right direction, i personally feel that it's bit overdone as it is now. 109 now have that "rubbery" feeling at all speeds.

It doesen't feel "sharp" and "delightful to manouver" at lower speeds (quotes from real pilot articles) anymore as it was before.

 

I also did few 360 degree rolls at 400km/h and 450km/ at around 500m height, it now takes 5-6 secs without rudder while time in reality should be closer to 4,5 sec according to Dave Soutwood test flying with Black 6 (Bf 109G-2/trop).

 

But hopefully this is just because it's the fist take on control forces and they will be tuned for closer to reality in future...

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I also did few 360 degree rolls at 400km/h and 450km/ at around 500m height, it now takes 5-6 secs without rudder while time in reality should be closer to 4,5 sec according to Dave Soutwood test flying with Black 6 (Bf 109G-2/trop).

 

Rudder usage is extremely important to roll performance. Try it with coordinated rudder usage.

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

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