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stick forces-please make them optional


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;2330567']sry sith ... you didnt get my point .

 

current version:

you pull too much - plane brakes

you pull as much that the plane does NOT break - results in a flightpath like in 1.2.15

 

version 1.2.15:

you pull too much - flightpath like in 1.2.15

you pull as much that the plane does NOT break - flightpath like in 1.2.15

 

get it now ?

 

 

I get what you are saying, I dont agree with adjusting the strength of the pilot... If you took a sampling of 100 Luftwaffe pilots back in WWII, I highly doubt the difference in strength would be that large, in such, any adjustment wouldnt be that large in DCS, and I dont think it would make a difference, and again... with the MP mindset, people would just pick the optimal setting, right now everyone gets the same, makes more sense that way.

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im at a different opinion on the "100Luftwaffe Pilots" .... but we probably never find out ;)

 

and to me a "takeoffassistence" makes even less sense than a strenght slider....but still we have it :music_whistling:

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actually .... i really would like to Hear YOYOs opinion on the "strength slider" if he says nonsense - i deal with it and be quiet ;)

 

sry sith ....on this Topic Yoyo is my "holygrale" :music_whistling:

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There are two types of fighter pilots - those who have, and those who will execute a magnificent break turn towards a bug on the canopy . . . .

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/schnarrsonvomdach

http://www.twitch.tv/schnarre

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;2330581']im at a different opinion on the "100Luftwaffe Pilots" .... but we probably never find out ;)

 

and to me a "takeoffassistence" makes even less sense than a strenght slider....but still we have it :music_whistling:

 

I agree, I dont like take off assistance, if I ran ED I would remove it :P

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;2330583']actually .... i really would like to Hear YOYOs opinion on the "strength slider" if he says nonsense - i deal with it and be quiet ;)

 

sry sith ....on this Topic Yoyo is my "holygrale" :music_whistling:

 

 

 

No worries, but its a forum, people give their opinions, I am giving mine, like you are giving yours, I cant help you dont like it ;)

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no problems with "opinions" ... but "you dont know what you are talking about" is a little harsh to just be "an opinion" .... some would call it offensive ^^

 

be friends again ? :beer:

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There are two types of fighter pilots - those who have, and those who will execute a magnificent break turn towards a bug on the canopy . . . .

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/schnarrsonvomdach

http://www.twitch.tv/schnarre

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;2330590']no problems with "opinions" ... but "you dont know what you are talking about" is a little harsh to just be "an opinion" .... some would call it offensive ^^

 

be friends again ? :beer:

 

 

That comment was directed at the amount of time i spend in the cockpit and my skill at the 109... and I stand by that statement, you dont know me or what you are talking about assuming all my time is spent on the forums.

 

;2330552']

you know... i spend waaayyyyy more time in cockpit than in the forum ;)

 

feel yourself challenged ;)

... i just roughly calculated that i have approximately a quarter of your Postamount in flighthours on various dcs modules ^^ .... i saw a lot .... like you did on the forum ;)


Edited by NineLine

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I agree with sith on this one. The 109 pilot IRL cannot be expected to do what David and Scnarre want. Human factor is very important. You basically want YoYo implement pilot strenght to be equal to superhuman, giving the 109 small and tight cockpit doesnt give a lot of room to even pull with rest of your body, just your hands.

 

Not to mention how hard it was to move your alerions in this plane at high speeds. While the current (pre 1.2.15) model has better roll rate than the FW190 xD


Edited by Solty

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My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS.

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;2330583']actually .... i really would like to Hear YOYOs opinion on the "strength slider" if he says nonsense - i deal with it and be quiet ;)

 

sry sith ....on this Topic Yoyo is my "holygrale" :music_whistling:

 

Never, never, never. Because then somebody will want to change wing area or something else... imagine one server for Arnolds. And one for normal men. Imagine these incredibly strong armchair Vikings fighting with Mustangs that have no room for power enhansement...

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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;2330544']

just imagine ... probably the pilots who were able to pull out a me109 didnt survived cause they were too strong and therefor broke the plane :megalol:

 

Yes...it actually happened sometimes:

 

"

After landing Me 109 with damaged rudder trim tab, which shook the rudder heavily in flight:

"Antti Tani: It had to be strong, both the rudder and the pedals, they withstood the damn shaking without any further damage.

Jussi Huotari: The Messerschmitt was a very tough aircraft. You could do vertical dives and the tailplane hang along..."

Antti Tani: But Mäittälä, what happened to him, he lost the tailplane? Mäittälä dived like that, and being a strong man he was able to pull harder than I did. And so the tailplane was ripped off

- The day before a similar dive and recovery had happened to the same plane. Two steep dives in succession and a strong pilot pulling the stick each time, so...

Antti Tani: It certainly was a risky job. It must be that I remember him because I did a dive like that and remembered his tailplane had been ripped off. I, too pulled as hard as I could, because I thought that I am going to die if I don't."

- Antti Tani, Finnish fighter ace. 21,5 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association.

- Jouko "Jussi" Huotari, Finnish fighter ace. 17 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association."

 

 

But i have to agree with those who doesen't want slider there. Pretty much everyone would use strongest pilot and it would not make sense anymore.

 

Can't comment further about stick forces because i've not tested it yet, sounds good thought.

CPU: Intel Core i7-2600k @3.40GHz | Motherboard: Asus P8P67-M | Memory: Kingston 8GB DDR3 | OS W10 | GPU: Sapphire R9 290x 8GBDDR5 | Monitor: Samsung Syncmaster 24" | Devices: Oculus Rift, MS FFB 2 joystick, Saitek X 52 Pro throttle, Saitek Pro pedals, Gametrix Jetseat

 

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ok...flying now in the open beta, i realise they have implemented stick forces, and what that means....

simple example...i pull the stick back, and keep it at a certain position at 400kph...while i keep the stick in the same position, the virtual stick moves slowly and continuously more and more back, resulting in a tighter and tighter turn...

no way this is more realistic.

its just a different approach.and i have to say, i hate it.(i know a strong word)

 

the former approach(stick position=virtual stick position) is way more intuitive for me personally.its what i really appreciated in dcs.

 

now of course, if stick forces would be too high to overcome by a pilot, then this should of course be restricted in game.

 

BUT: please make this "stick forces" thing an optional setting just like the virtual head movement....it got nothing to do with being more or less realistc, but its two different approaches on a problem....

 

i realise there are probably many people who appreciate those stick forces, but please dont force it on people who do not like that.

 

I TOTALY Disagree with you Sir, its good way as it is.

I have only one argument for this, if you are pulling the stick with same arm force all the time, then when loosing your airspeed, the stick will be softer, and move further back, and back. It's logical for me, and simulate the stick movement.

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Never, never, never. Because then somebody will want to change wing area or something else... imagine one server for Arnolds. And one for normal men. Imagine these incredibly strong armchair Vikings fighting with Mustangs that have no room for power enhansement...

 

ehhh ...imho its comparing apples with oranges...sry YOYO

wingarea is sth where there is "specific" knowledge about that specific plane ... it has THAT SPECIFIC WINGAREA ... and not more ...all k4 have the same wingarea(at least in squareft ...dunno in square mm though ;) )

 

there is no such "absolut pilotstrength" ...they differ quite a lot ...more than the wingareas of different k4s

 

thats to that....

 

But as said - for me the discussion on this topic is over.

im quite happy with it, and i will now even break less wing and will be able to shoot down even more planes ^^

for me everything is fine as it is.

THX Yoyo for a definate answer to the "slideroption"

 

peace out

see you in the skies :pilotfly:

ah .... and remember to always check six ^^

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

There are two types of fighter pilots - those who have, and those who will execute a magnificent break turn towards a bug on the canopy . . . .

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/schnarrsonvomdach

http://www.twitch.tv/schnarre

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Schnarre-Schnarrson/876084505743788?fref=ts

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I think we should have this "progressive stick force" feature thing deactivated for force feedback joystick users. I mean this new feature seems very convenient for use with non ffb sticks but when you have ffb stick you can feel how much resistance there is on the aircraft's control surfaces and act accordingly. For me who has sidewinder ffb2, it feels unnatural now.

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I TOTALY Disagree with you Sir, its good way as it is.

I have only one argument for this, if you are pulling the stick with same arm force all the time, then when loosing your airspeed, the stick will be softer, and move further back, and back. It's logical for me, and simulate the stick movement.

 

It is true only for non-FFB devices.

 

 

In case of force-feedback devices force on the stick (hardware) should change, not the position of virtual stick.

I really think it should be optional.

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It is true only for non-FFB devices.

 

 

In case of force-feedback devices force on the stick (hardware) should change, not the position of virtual stick.

I really think it should be optional.

how many people have stick that have FFB strong enough to hinder your average nerd from pulling insta 8 g at 800 kph?

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how many people have stick that have FFB strong enough to hinder your average nerd from pulling insta 8 g at 800 kph?

 

I agree, the FFB doesnt really hold water, the stick still doesnt generate the same forces felt by the real thing...

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how many people have stick that have FFB strong enough to hinder your average nerd from pulling insta 8 g at 800 kph?

 

Microsoft Sidewinder FFB has a very strong motor. You can easily ask it to be gentle at low speed and very hard to move at high speeds. It's just a matter of what you wrote in the file managing the bf109 ffb values.

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Microsoft Sidewinder FFB has a very strong motor. You can easily ask it to be gentle at low speed and very hard to move at high speeds. It's just a matter of what you wrote in the file managing the bf109 ffb values.

 

It's still not going to compare to real world forces...

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It's still not going to compare to real world forces...

 

Sure, but it should be plenty enough to prevent people from pulling crazy amounts of Gs imho. Plus it's also a matter of feel. I mean, the resistance you get also plays a role of reference. If you broke your wings after surpassing say, this amount of resistance, you will remember it and not do it again later.


Edited by Nooch

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I think David has a point. Consider the following example.

 

Flying at low level, 500 Km/h, full throttle, I pull the stick very slightly and enter a loop, then freeze the stick position in pitch. As the speed decreases, the controls indicator shows the stick as being pulled more and more, until the plane stalls. But I haven’t done that! I haven’t pulled the stick more and more to cause the stall! My hand maintained the same stick position in pitch of about only 15% pull, insufficient to stall the plane in this condition.

 

I can reasonably well appreciate how much I pull on my joystick. How am I supposed to appreciate how much the plane’s stick is actually being pulled?

 

If I pull the stick a certain amount, I’m expecting the stick to remain in that position as long as the necessary stick force is less than the maximum the simulation accepts the pilot is able to exert. If the speed is increasing and the necessary force is greater than the current one, so be it, reduce the elevator deflection according to that.

 

I did an experiment with the 109 in 1.2.14 and performed like 10 consecutive loops with constant stick position in pitch. In 1.2.15 this exercise requires constant attention. When should I start to ease the pull on the stick? And by how much? The end result is during maneuvers with decreasing speed at a constant joystick position in pitch the aircraft is quickly increasing the AoA.

 

So I return to the original loop example. At 500 Km/h I pull the stick about 15% of its full travel. If the stick in planes’s cockpit remains in this 15% pull position, the aircraft will perform the loop without stalling. But in order to keep the plane’s stick in the 15% position while speed is decreasing, I have to reduce the amount I pull on my joystick. The result is that, in the ascending part of the loop I need to continuously reduce the pull while the speed is decreasing, compared to real life where if I keep reducing the pull in the ascending part of the loop the AoA will get smaller and smaller while the speed is smaller and smaller and the plane won’t even reach the top. See the massive difference? The result is the required technique you use to physically pull on the joystick differs fundamentally from what you do with the stick in reality.

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how many people have stick that have FFB strong enough to hinder your average nerd from pulling insta 8 g at 800 kph?

 

I agree, the FFB doesnt really hold water, the stick still doesnt generate the same forces felt by the real thing...

 

Sorry for my poor English, hard for me to properly explain what I meant.

I will try to put it another way.

 

 

Without “virtual” stick forces: To hold virtual stick in the same position I need to prevent my joystick from moving by adjusting force with which I pull it.

With “virtual” force: I also need to change position of my joystick to hold virtual stick in same position.

 

 

It is not about FFB preventing me from pulling stick to unrealistic angles. It is about how informative process of holding stick with my hand will be.

 

Edit:

Again, someone else explained it much better while I submitting my post. :)


Edited by Mordhar

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I think David has a point. Consider the following example.

 

Flying at low level, 500 Km/h, full throttle, I pull the stick very slightly and enter a loop, then freeze the stick position in pitch. As the speed decreases, the controls indicator shows the stick as being pulled more and more, until the plane stalls. But I haven’t done that! I haven’t pulled the stick more and more to cause the stall! My hand maintained the same stick position in pitch of about only 15% pull, insufficient to stall the plane in this condition.

 

I can reasonably well appreciate how much I pull on my joystick. How am I supposed to appreciate how much the plane’s stick is actually being pulled?

 

If I pull the stick a certain amount, I’m expecting the stick to remain in that position as long as the necessary stick force is less than the maximum the simulation accepts the pilot is able to exert. If the speed is increasing and the necessary force is greater than the current one, so be it, reduce the elevator deflection according to that.

 

I did an experiment with the 109 in 1.2.14 and performed like 10 consecutive loops with constant stick position in pitch. In 1.2.15 this exercise requires constant attention. When should I start to ease the pull on the stick? And by how much? The end result is during maneuvers with decreasing speed at a constant joystick position in pitch the aircraft is quickly increasing the AoA.

 

So I return to the original loop example. At 500 Km/h I pull the stick about 15% of its full travel. If the stick in planes’s cockpit remains in this 15% pull position, the aircraft will perform the loop without stalling. But in order to keep the plane’s stick in the 15% position while speed is decreasing, I have to reduce the amount I pull on my joystick. The result is that, in the ascending part of the loop I need to continuously reduce the pull while the speed is decreasing, compared to real life where if I keep reducing the pull in the ascending part of the loop the AoA will get smaller and smaller while the speed is smaller and smaller and the plane won’t even reach the top. See the massive difference? The result is the required technique you use to physically pull on the joystick differs fundamentally from what you do with the stick in reality.

 

 

^^this :thumbup:

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I think David has a point. Consider the following example.

 

Flying at low level, 500 Km/h, full throttle, I pull the stick very slightly and enter a loop, then freeze the stick position in pitch. As the speed decreases, the controls indicator shows the stick as being pulled more and more, until the plane stalls. But I haven’t done that! I haven’t pulled the stick more and more to cause the stall! My hand maintained the same stick position in pitch of about only 15% pull, insufficient to stall the plane in this condition.

 

I can reasonably well appreciate how much I pull on my joystick. How am I supposed to appreciate how much the plane’s stick is actually being pulled?

 

If I pull the stick a certain amount, I’m expecting the stick to remain in that position as long as the necessary stick force is less than the maximum the simulation accepts the pilot is able to exert. If the speed is increasing and the necessary force is greater than the current one, so be it, reduce the elevator deflection according to that.

 

I did an experiment with the 109 in 1.2.14 and performed like 10 consecutive loops with constant stick position in pitch. In 1.2.15 this exercise requires constant attention. When should I start to ease the pull on the stick? And by how much? The end result is during maneuvers with decreasing speed at a constant joystick position in pitch the aircraft is quickly increasing the AoA.

 

So I return to the original loop example. At 500 Km/h I pull the stick about 15% of its full travel. If the stick in planes’s cockpit remains in this 15% pull position, the aircraft will perform the loop without stalling. But in order to keep the plane’s stick in the 15% position while speed is decreasing, I have to reduce the amount I pull on my joystick. The result is that, in the ascending part of the loop I need to continuously reduce the pull while the speed is decreasing, compared to real life where if I keep reducing the pull in the ascending part of the loop the AoA will get smaller and smaller while the speed is smaller and smaller and the plane won’t even reach the top. See the massive difference? The result is the required technique you use to physically pull on the joystick differs fundamentally from what you do with the stick in reality.

 

Very good point. I totally agree, it makes turn inconsistant and does more harm than good.

It feels like we're not in full control of the machine, which takes away a little bit of the fun.

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Excelent point... maybe the "show current joystick position" in the little control panel (CTRL+Enter) would help a little bit with this.

 

I do understand that simulating control forces will always be hard in a home simulator.

 

But I really appriciate the teams efforts on this.

 

Maybe there a better way to simulate this?

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