Valve/HTC Vive Discussion

[S3NTRY11]

Standardized API's are already being worked on as we speak. Once they are released it will be join on or die. Just like the videocards. Good analogy.

 

Yeah, but wouldn't it be nice to live in a world where the open standard wins for once.

For all their cawing, I just don't think that's the path Oculus want to walk down, hand-in-hand with a glint of love in their eye, unfortunately.

[metalnwood]

Standards will come but when there is a new technology and different companies are racing to get there first they dont want to wait for a standard and come in 2nd place or even 1st equal.

[Chivas]

Vive has been primarily concentrating on creating VR hardware for the last few years. VR hardware is useless without the software. Lets demonize Oculus for funding, and supporting much of the VR software for the last few years. Oculus has helped DCS implement VR support, and obviously haven't thrown any roadblocks to DCS implementing Vive support.

[PiedDroit]

Proprietary software wars will destroy VR. It needs to be like video cards and it will.

Proprietary will work in the short term but as soon as several credible VR systems will be available (i.e. more than 2), the devs will develop for those who reach the maximum number of VR owners, most likely "open" APIs.

The big players should be working on an unified API as one of their primary goal, otherwise someone else will.

Edited November 25, 2015 by PiedDroit

[S3NTRY11]

Vive has been primarily concentrating on creating VR hardware for the last few years. VR hardware is useless without the software. Lets demonize Oculus for funding, and supporting much of the VR software for the last few years. Oculus has helped DCS implement VR support, and obviously haven't thrown any roadblocks to DCS implementing Vive support.

I'm just stating how they're playing it. If that demonizes them, so be it.

 

Remember, it was Valve that gave Oculus a massive leg-up. Not the other way around.

[Chivas]

I'm just stating how they're playing it. If that demonizes them, so be it.

 

Remember, it was Valve that gave Oculus a massive leg-up. Not the other way around.

 

Its not how they're playing it, its how your speculating they will play it.

 

Massive leg up? It probably went both ways. There is no doubt that Valve helped Oculus with the low persistence tech, and there is little doubt that Oculus helped Valve on the hardware side, as well, seeing they worked together for quite sometime. Unless you assume it was all one sided. All the work Oculus did on the software side, explaining to devs how best to develop VR software has also benefited Vive.

 

In the end business is business, as we don't live in a Utopia, but it will be interesting to see how it all pans out. Certainly in the beginning, for many reasons, not all software devs will implement support for both the leading desktop VR headsets, . Many will wait to see which has the better specs/input for the type of games they plan to develop.

[Chivas]

Proprietary software wars will destroy VR. It needs to be like video cards and it will.

 

Proprietary software will never destroy VR. VR/AR is unstoppable at this point. It will initially help, hurt ,or destroy specific developers that priorities software, and piss off some people, but market demand will find it own level.

[S3NTRY11]

Its not how they're playing it, its how your speculating they will play it.

 

I'm not speculating on actions they've already taken. That's observation, not speculation.

You're not even speculating. You're, to quote you, "burying your head in the sand".

 

You can't on one hand, complain that Oculus are being demonised, and then in the next related post, use the term "business is business".

 

Massive leg up? It probably went both ways.

There were initial cooperations between them, but Valve had been working on VR for some time before Oculus were even a thing.

Have you heard of "The Room"?

Have you heard of Michael Abrash?

 

Many will wait to see which has the better specs/input for the type of games they plan to develop.

Yep, and imagine how much better it would be for the industry if they all worked to an open standard. Which is not what Oculus are championing.

[Chivas]

I'm not speculating on actions they've already taken. That's observation, not speculation.

You're not even speculating. You're, to quote you, "burying your head in the sand".

 

You can't on one hand, complain that Oculus are being demonised, and then in the next related post, use the term "business is business".

 

 

There were initial cooperations between them, but Valve had been working on VR for some time before Oculus were even a thing.

Have you heard of "The Room"?

Have you heard of Michael Abrash?

 

 

Yep, and imagine how much better it would be for the industry if they all worked to an open standard. Which is not what Oculus are championing.

 

You obviously forgotten what Oculus is championing, since you've stuck your head up the Vive cloud. I'll try to remind you, Oculus is championing VR by providing quality hardware near cost, and are creating/funding/supporting the software required, long before Vive mentioned they were bringing VR hardware to the market. It still remains to be seen how that software can and will be implemented between hardware devices, or what hardware devises will actually be around when the dust settles.

 

Your suggesting that Valve knew everything about VR before Oculus, and it could also be suggested that they didn't get it right until they started working with Oculus. :) You do realise that Abrash now works for Oculus, and Valve tied its wagon to a struggling hardware company?

[S3NTRY11]

A timely article:

http://augmentl.io/can-virtual-reality-escape-the-exclusivity-trap/

[S3NTRY11]

Fingers crossed!

Edited November 26, 2015 by S3NTRY11
removed needless quote

[S3NTRY11]

You obviously forgotten what Oculus is championing, since you've stuck your head up the Vive cloud.

Was it you that was bumbling on about people taking things personally?

 

Allow me to retort.

 

Your suggesting that Valve knew everything about VR before Oculus, and it could also be suggested that they didn't get it right until they started working with Oculus. :) You do realise that Abrash now works for Oculus, and Valve tied its wagon to a struggling hardware company?

 

Abrash works for Oculus - OH REALLY?! Thanks for the enlightenment, it was completely my point.

You keep throwing my points back at me, like you're informing me of something, when it's clear you simply didn't understand what I was saying. Which I don't quite understand, everyone else seems to get them. Unless...

 

I've come to realise that you are intentionally obtuse (Google it, I'll wait).

 

Valve didn't know everything there was to know, but I bet they regret the Oculus experiment now. If they were such über friends, they'd still be in business now, wouldn't they.

 

Also your is possessive, you're is a contraction. Know the difference.

[hansangb]

Take it to PM, please. We all thank you.

[grammaton_feather]

You obviously forgotten what Oculus is championing, since you've stuck your head up the Vive cloud. I'll try to remind you, Oculus is championing VR by providing quality hardware near cost, and are creating/funding/supporting the software required, long before Vive mentioned they were bringing VR hardware to the market. It still remains to be seen how that software can and will be implemented between hardware devices, or what hardware devises will actually be around when the dust settles.

 

Your suggesting that Valve knew everything about VR before Oculus, and it could also be suggested that they didn't get it right until they started working with Oculus. :) You do realise that Abrash now works for Oculus, and Valve tied its wagon to a struggling hardware company?

 

 

Palmer used to tinker in his parent's garage with VR so it had nothing to do with Valve getting there first. Palmer made consumer VR a thing. Good observations you make here. Agree.

 

By the way... I had to give up getting DCS world to run smoothly with my Oculus DK2. DCS is just too badly optimised.

[grammaton_feather]

DIGITAL COMBAT SIMULATOR WORLD GETS HTC VIVE SUPPORT

 

http://vrfocus.com/archives/25463/digital-combat-simulator-world-gets-htc-vive-support/

 

That's hilarious given the sim doesn't work properly with Oculus.

[Brisse]

That's hilarious given the sim doesn't work properly with Oculus.

 

The Vive support isn't even public yet, and probably just in the very early stages, so I don't see why it's hilarious. When the Oculus is released I expect it to work properly in DCS. Right now, everything is just experimental work in progress.

[Chivas]

Was it you that was bumbling on about people taking things personally?

 

Allow me to retort.

 

 

 

Abrash works for Oculus - OH REALLY?! Thanks for the enlightenment, it was completely my point.

You keep throwing my points back at me, like you're informing me of something, when it's clear you simply didn't understand what I was saying. Which I don't quite understand, everyone else seems to get them. Unless...

 

I've come to realise that you are intentionally obtuse (Google it, I'll wait).

 

Valve didn't know everything there was to know, but I bet they regret the Oculus experiment now. If they were such über friends, they'd still be in business now, wouldn't they.

 

Also your is possessive, you're is a contraction. Know the difference.

 

 

You know when someone has lost an argument when they use the spelling/grammar retort. :)

[Quantenpresbyterianer]

PM please, as already mentioned before.

[vicx]

I think Oculus will be the most affordable solution and I think it will be the most convenient and the easiest to use package. It's going to make most people happy.

 

BUT I don't necessarily want the cheapest or most convenient or easiest to use HMD cause I want other things more. What I want is the most feature rich HMD that gives me the most options and lots of ways to customise the way I use it and has people hacking on it to make it do crazy s_.

 

I just get the feeling that Vive is gonna be a little more geeky - at least I hope that ends up being the case. The guy who designed the Lighthouse tech gave a talk earlier this year and I thought ... this is even cooler than the HMD part. I'll make my own tracking parts when they release schematics or just wait a week and order chinese dongles on ebay. I'm going to find that side of things a lot of fun.

 

If they were selling the Vive dev kit I'd probably already have one to go with my DK2. See that's the thing ... because I have a DK2 the thought of getting a CV1 Rift is not as exciting. I know I'd be getting something a lot more polished ... but I wouldn't be getting anything really new.

 

YMMV ... but that's my take.

[TomOnSteam]

watching that video really just emphasizes how badly they need to have controllers that are like gloves, knuckle dusters, or predator style wrist braces. Something that you don't need to hold, yet something that has an optical sensor that can tell if your fingers are moving.

[Revelation]

watching that video really just emphasizes how badly they need to have controllers that are like gloves, knuckle dusters, or predator style wrist braces. Something that you don't need to hold, yet something that has an optical sensor that can tell if your fingers are moving.

 

Ask and ye shall receive...

 

http://www.roadtovr.com/2-vr-gloves-promising-haptic-feedback-2-different-approaches/

[S3NTRY11]

Ask and ye shall receive...

 

http://www.roadtovr.com/2-vr-gloves-promising-haptic-feedback-2-different-approaches/

I'd buy-in without a second thought if lighthouse was guaranteed.

[vicx]

they need to have controllers that are like gloves, knuckle dusters, or predator style wrist braces. Something that you don't need to hold, yet something that has an optical sensor that can tell if your fingers are moving.

 

Oh it's going to happen ... it's not an area a HMD maker wants to commit to but 3rd parties are going to go crazy with this. You will have lots to choose from.

 

Feedback on the glove link. I have seen a proper force feedback gloves with servos that look pretty awesome and at the other end low commitment devices like finger tip thimbles and rings might also work. There won't just be gloves.

 

There will be a full range of devices with varying capabilities and ways to interoperate with the HMD tracking systems.

[vicx]

Does anyone want to work on a combined texture and visibility MOD that is specially

 

Does anyone want to collaborate on a combined texture and visibility MOD that is specially for VR use.

 

Playing with VR is hard on the system so there are lot of things we could detune to get some performance headroom back. At the same time, in VR some visual effects look great in VR and some look bad.

 

In a MOD we could boost up good effects and reduce the bad looking effects.

 

Example:

• Distant textures do not render in VR at all (Wide FOV and No zoom) ... it would be best to have very distinct and flatter textures at a distance and only use detail textures up close.
  
• Same goes for rendering of objects. You want the geometrical objects to show up futher away but the textures for those objects are not as important.
  
• Stuff like the ugly town surface textures can be removed as can the
  

 

Has anyone already down some work in this area. Does anyone have some feedback on testing they have done.

 

Is there any particular texture pack MOD that makes things look better in VR?

[JLX]

Does anyone want to collaborate on a combined texture and visibility MOD that is specially for VR use.

 

Playing with VR is hard on the system so there are lot of things we could detune to get some performance headroom back. At the same time, in VR some visual effects look great in VR and some look bad.

 

In a MOD we could boost up good effects and reduce the bad looking effects.

 

Example:

• Distant textures do not render in VR at all (Wide FOV and No zoom) ... it would be best to have very distinct and flatter textures at a distance and only use detail textures up close.
  
• Same goes for rendering of objects. You want the geometrical objects to show up futher away but the textures for those objects are not as important.
  
• Stuff like the ugly town surface textures can be removed as can the
  

 

Has anyone already down some work in this area. Does anyone have some feedback on testing they have done.

 

Is there any particular texture pack MOD that makes things look better in VR?

I don't have anything to contribute to such an effort but this is a really good idea!

 

I wonder if ED is planning (or could be persuaded) to support this. If any ED are able to comment, that would be great.

 

Regardless, great initiative vicx! We're going to need to squeak every last bit of juice out of our systems for VR.

 

Good luck with the project. I'll be watching closely. Perhaps someone like Bartek could help with the textures?