Valve/HTC Vive Discussion

[grammaton_feather]

The Vive support isn't even public yet, and probably just in the very early stages, so I don't see why it's hilarious. When the Oculus is released I expect it to work properly in DCS. Right now, everything is just experimental work in progress.

 

Oculus has been released for more than a year and DK2 has a pretty good range of supported games and demos now.

 

I realise it's a developer targeted device but nevertheless there's a lot of content out there for it.

 

I think DCS just isn't optimised enough for VR and I don't think that will change very soon when CV1 arrives.

 

DK2 period was the time when developers should have been learning and refining their products rather than simply waiting for CV1 stage.

[Chivas]

So, you don't need a 15 x 15 room for Vive. Yay! Smaller spaces are fine.

 

"Arguably the defining feature of the HTC Vive virtual reality (VR) head-mounted display (HMD) is its Room Scale user-tracking, provided by Valve’s SteamVR system and its Lighthouse laser-based solution. The concept works by tracking a user’s movements in an area of up to 15-feet by 15-feet and having those movements then replicated within the given experience. But those with limited space shouldn’t worry about having room to use the HMD; HTC is well aware that many people will be using smaller spaces."

 

http://vrfocus.com/archives/25592/htc-people-will-use-a-smaller-space-for-vives-room-scale-tracking/

 

Yes, this has been a perceptual problem for Vive for sometime. I recently watched a Vive presentation where the rep repeatedly had to emphasize that it wasn't just a moving/standing experience but a sitting experience as well. Oculus has had the same, but opposite problem, if you know what I mean.

[Chivas]

watching that video really just emphasizes how badly they need to have controllers that are like gloves, knuckle dusters, or predator style wrist braces. Something that you don't need to hold, yet something that has an optical sensor that can tell if your fingers are moving.

 

 

If the input controllers are accurate enough to be used as stick and throttle controllers, then I can see people modding inputs like the Oculus touch. The Oculus touch inputs should work well for in cockpit switch adjustment, as they have some finger dexterity attributes.

 

I'd envision some sort of quick connect/disconnect docking stations in the stick and throttle positions, where you could use the inputs to adjust cockpit switches as well as stick and throttle use. It doesn't matter what the inputs look like as we can't see them anyway while in VR, and they should feel ok, since they're pistol type grips.

[Johnny Dioxin]

For some of us, an Oculus Touch type thyngamajig would be bad news when we get an attack of the arthritic wobblies!

 

Shake the plane to bits... :joystick:

[Chivas]

I think Oculus will be the most affordable solution and I think it will be the most convenient and the easiest to use package. It's going to make most people happy.

 

BUT I don't necessarily want the cheapest or most convenient or easiest to use HMD cause I want other things more. What I want is the most feature rich HMD that gives me the most options and lots of ways to customise the way I use it and has people hacking on it to make it do crazy s_.

 

I just get the feeling that Vive is gonna be a little more geeky - at least I hope that ends up being the case. The guy who designed the Lighthouse tech gave a talk earlier this year and I thought ... this is even cooler than the HMD part. I'll make my own tracking parts when they release schematics or just wait a week and order chinese dongles on ebay. I'm going to find that side of things a lot of fun.

 

If they were selling the Vive dev kit I'd probably already have one to go with my DK2. See that's the thing ... because I have a DK2 the thought of getting a CV1 Rift is not as exciting. I know I'd be getting something a lot more polished ... but I wouldn't be getting anything really new.

 

YMMV ... but that's my take.

 

The Vive could well be the most Geek friendly option. Personally I think your totally off base thinking that the CV1 will just be a polished DK2. The DK2 is even old in the VR prototype evolution, never mind consumer versions. We still don't know the final specs of the Vive or Rift, but the wait shouldn't be much longer.

[S3NTRY11]

It doesn't matter what the inputs look like as we can't see them anyway while in VR, and they should feel ok, since they're pistol type grips.

 

If they can be tracked, they can, and should, be seen in VR (with a translucency effect or the like when not in active use).

[S3NTRY11]

Oculus has been released for more than a year and DK2 has a pretty good range of supported games and demos now.

 

I realise it's a developer targeted device but nevertheless there's a lot of content out there for it.

 

I think DCS just isn't optimised enough for VR and I don't think that will change very soon when CV1 arrives.

 

DK2 period was the time when developers should have been learning and refining their products rather than simply waiting for CV1 stage.

I have to crank all my details quite low, and even then, still dip below 75FPS which hurts.

 

Having said that, my CPU is old, and my video cards aren't great (crossfire doesn't seem to work for me). It will be interesting to see how optimised Nevada is - that will be a truer test than the current map, I'd say.

 

I think to get the most out of VR (especially in DCS), anyone that wants in is going to have to upgrade their gear, if they're not running current mid-high range.

[Chivas]

If they can be tracked, they can, and should, be seen in VR (with a translucency effect or the like when not in active use).

 

Of course they can be seen, but they could be take any form the devs can imagine. In the demos I've seen Oculus represents the Touch inputs as hands, which would work well in flight sims. Hands resting on the stick/throttle simulated for that particular aircraft, and hands moving around to adjust cockpit switches. I've chosen the Oculus Touch inputs for now as their current prototype has some finger dexterity that can also be tracked.

[S3NTRY11]

It doesn't matter what the inputs look like as we can't see them anyway while in VR

Of course they can be seen

Which is it?...

In the demos I've seen Oculus represents the Touch inputs as hands, which would work well in flight sims. Hands resting on the stick/throttle simulated for that particular aircraft, and hands moving around to adjust cockpit switches.

I think that sounds better than the reality would be, if you need to drop the input devices, say to go back to your stick; having them reflect their true form would make it more intuitive, at the loss of some immersion. Practicality will win here.

I've chosen the Oculus Touch inputs for now as their current prototype has some finger dexterity that can also be tracked.

The current Touch prototypes are certainly much better input devices than the Vive wands. The integration of finger tracking is a huge advantage.

The magic wands will be lame for sims. They are just a mediocre universal solution until something better comes along. Gloves all the way for sims.

I think they'll be fine. I thought the same way for a long time, but I don't know, after wags mentioned their integration, I thought about it a little more, and came to thinking that the practicality will outweigh the lameness.

I agree, gloves for the win though, or Touch-style dexterity as an in-between.

[Chivas]

Which is it?...

 

I think that sounds better than the reality would be, if you need to drop the input devices, say to go back to your stick; having them reflect their true form would make it more intuitive, at the loss of some immersion. Practicality will win here.

 

The current Touch prototypes are certainly much better input devices than the Vive wands. The integration of finger tracking is a huge advantage.

 

I think they'll be fine. I thought the same way for a long time, but I don't know, after wags mentioned their integration, I thought about it a little more, and came to thinking that the practicality will outweigh the lameness.

I agree, gloves for the win though, or Touch-style dexterity as an in-between.

 

I thought it was obvious. You can't see the "INPUTS", keyboard, anything while in VR, so it doesn't matter if the inputs look like wands, or touch, or anything else.

 

I don't think you quite understand. The Touch inputs are your stick, throttle, and clickable cockpit input. You don't drop the inputs and find your stick and throttle, you put the Touch units back in their modded docking station that returns them to throttle/Stick mode. When you remove one or the other from their docking station it goes into cockpit toggle mode, until you return it to its docking station.

 

The throttle docking station would be similar to an aircraft throttle, with moveable leaver, with a horizontal docking station for the Touch input, which no becomes the throttle handle. The Stick docking station would have a universal vertical docking station. The docking stations just provides the resistance and appropriately allowed direction of movement.

 

Just thinking out loud here, and currently prefer programming cockpit inputs to my Hotas system. The mod probably wouldn't be doable without considerable work being done in the games input code anyway. I know DCS is looking at the integrating the VR inputs, but not sure if that's just the Vive Wands, or even what assignments they are considering. I don't much care for the idea of letting go of a stick or throttle, finding the Wand/Touch and then clicking the appropriate switch. Thus the docking station idea.

[hansangb]

In Rift (should be no different in Vive), looking at the control and clicking on the mouse (or HOTAS key reprogrammed, I guess) is pretty intuitive. So long as the cockpit is clickable, it's quite doable.

 

I think the only device that has a chance of doing input properly is Microsoft's HoloLens. Or MagicLeap if they ever come out with a product (LOL). I think the idea of using a wand is too intrusive for a flight sim.

 

hsb

[S3NTRY11]

The Touch inputs are your stick, throttle, and clickable cockpit input. You don't drop the inputs and find your stick and throttle, you put the Touch units back in their modded docking station that returns them to throttle/Stick mode. When you remove one or the other from their docking station it goes into cockpit toggle mode, until you return it to its docking station.

 

The throttle docking station would be similar to an aircraft throttle, with moveable leaver, with a horizontal docking station for the Touch input, which no becomes the throttle handle. The Stick docking station would have a universal vertical docking station. The docking stations just provides the resistance and appropriately allowed direction of movement.

 

I don't see that taking off, no pun intended.

I don't much care for the idea of letting go of a stick or throttle, finding the Wand/Touch and then clicking the appropriate switch.

 

I think the idea of using a wand is too intrusive for a flight sim.

I was thinking that the wand idea was a bad one too, until I realised that I use the mouse without much trouble with the DK2, and there isn't even a representation of that in the sim; I'm using it blind, which I doubt will be the case with Vive wands/Touch. And having a representation in-game, along with intuitive "switchology", should be highly intuitive.

[grammaton_feather]

I have to crank all my details quite low, and even then, still dip below 75FPS which hurts.

 

Having said that, my CPU is old, and my video cards aren't great (crossfire doesn't seem to work for me). It will be interesting to see how optimised Nevada is - that will be a truer test than the current map, I'd say.

 

I think to get the most out of VR (especially in DCS), anyone that wants in is going to have to upgrade their gear, if they're not running current mid-high range.

 

I have a GTX 680 which is obviously old now but it's overclocked high along with my i5 2500k and the ram.

 

I'm able to run FSX ok on Oculus and a lot of other games and demos.

 

I doubt Nevada will be any different because it's the DCS engine that needs to be optimized.

[hansangb]

I was thinking that the wand idea was a bad one too, until I realised that I use the mouse without much trouble with the DK2, and there isn't even a representation of that in the sim; I'm using it blind, which I doubt will be the case with Vive wands/Touch. And having a representation in-game, along with intuitive "switchology", should be highly intuitive.

 

 

True. I use the mouse w/o much trouble. But I'm wondering what the wand would bring to the table. The representation of your own arm? I suppose that could work. So long as it's accurate enough like a mouse. If it's anything like Leap, it just won't work.

[Chivas]

I don't see that taking off, no pun intended.

 

 

 

I was thinking that the wand idea was a bad one too, until I realised that I use the mouse without much trouble with the DK2, and there isn't even a representation of that in the sim; I'm using it blind, which I doubt will be the case with Vive wands/Touch. And having a representation in-game, along with intuitive "switchology", should be highly intuitive.

 

 

I never once thought it would take off. It was just a mod idea that some people might contemplate if they were really into clickable cockpits. To many unknowns, at this point, and would depend on the accuracy of the VR inputs, and how well the sim integrates VR inputs. The physical docking stations would be relatively easy to create, as there would be no electronics required.

[Chivas]

Not a problem for Vive anymore.:thumbup:

 

Oh the perception problem is obviously still there. Which you've statement proves.

[S3NTRY11]

The physical docking stations would be relatively easy to create, as there would be no electronics required.

I look forward to seeing the prototypes.

[average_pilot]

Its not a problem anymore for Vive. So all is good.

The point you are failing to see is that it NEVER was.

[Chivas]

I look forward to seeing the prototypes.

 

You probably won't see any mods of that type from me. I have no use for clickable cockpits, and prefer programming actions to my HOTA's actual switches/rotaries, with their inherent haptic feedback. I don't see gloves having quality haptic feedback for sometime, and one of the reasons some people might prefer the Touch inputs for clickable cockpits.

[S3NTRY11]

Lots of glove options coming. This is the future of VR sims.

 

http://www.wareable.com/vr/manus-machina-wireless-gloves-hand-tracking-oculus-rift-gear-vr-htc-vive-osvr-1517

Hell yeah! Now we're talking.

[vicx]

Chivas, I could bind every switch to my HOTAS using modifiers but I don't really want to do that with my full flavour DCS modules. Part of what makes DCS unique is the extra detail of having clickable switchgear in modules like Mi-8 (my favourite module right now).

 

Using the mouse for switchgear with the DK2 is a bit annoying BUT not for the reason you might think. The main irritating thing with the mouse is that the screen the mouse operates in is windowed and you can travel outside the windows and lose the cursor. Making the window fullscreen doesn't seem to trap the mouse the way it does normally. When you actually have the mouse in your window it is easy enough to use. I should probably report that instead of putting up with it.

 

As for using a wand. I think I would easily adapt to using a wand. I think it would be easier to sue than a mouse and and also more enjoyable. There are some very cool mechanisms already available in DCS that will make using a wand easier. The 3D hint boxes used for tutorials could be adapted to show a moving translucent 3D pointer when the wand is active. In VR those helper regions look really cool.

 

Not on topic but relevant. I generally like the pilot body but sometimes I wonder if it would be nice to have the option of having it partially translucent - kind of a shadow showing where the body is than an actual photoreal body. In the KA-50 some of those switches on the right are just annoying to access with the player body in the way.

 

Lots of glove options coming. This is the future of VR sims.

 

Icarus ... as cool as those gloves are they are (VERY COOL) very much overkill for DCS because all you need in DCS is a pointer. In DCS you don't really pick things up and manipulate them which is the application these gloves are aimed at and why they cost so much. I think a very simple pointer token or coin tiny want that sits in holder in your cockpit space would be sufficient. Like a wand but much more basic and much smaller.

[TomOnSteam]

I was thinking about the wand thing. I'm starting to think that these are almost too complicated. I think at most all I would need is a wand or even air mouse stuck to my left forearm, and then I would have a picky button on the joystick do a mouse click.

 

That would allow me to move my left arm onto a button position and use my right hand pinky to click the button.

[hansangb]

Well, they do make those 3D spacial mouse. The only thing is, as mentioned earlier, once the mouse goes beyond the screen, you can lose the cursorm.

 

I guess the wand would serve similar purpose as a 3D mouse.

[Chivas]

Vicx... interesting point about the pilots body/arms. Jobsimulator working with Oculus Touch and the Vive wands found that modeling the whole body can cause lose of presence, when peoples actual body movement was slightly different than what is displayed, as just the hand area is actually tracked. They found that its best just to display hands, and peoples brains just fill in the other body parts with few issues.

[average_pilot]

No, I see that the problem was ALWAYS a false perception. It is no longer a perception problem, now it has been debunked. All is good :thumbup:

Ah. A false perception on my part. All is good then :thumbup: