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Valve/HTC Vive Discussion


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Vicx... interesting point about the pilots body/arms. Jobsimulator working with Oculus Touch and the Vive wands found that modeling the whole body can cause lose of presence, when peoples actual body movement was slightly different than what is displayed, as just the hand area is actually tracked. They found that its best just to display hands, and peoples brains just fill in the other body parts with few issues.

 

Yeah that is interesting. I wonder if that uncanny body effect is more noticeable in room-scale applications. In a cockpit I do want body representation but something that is a fuzzy generic shape rather than an attempt at photorealism. I guess that does qualify as an attempt to avoid the uncanny valley.

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As I suspected HTC is hinting that the Vive will be delayed until early next year. The good news is they expect the available content will be as high as three digits. Expect announcement in the coming weeks, probably before the end of the year. [ame]

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Elite Dangerous is still working with Oculus. Elite Dangerous is having issues with Oculus's lastest SDK version. I can see there being issues until the consumer versions SDK is released. It must be a real pain in the arse to constantly revise your software to fit continually changing SDK's for unfinished hardware.

 

Thing's should be ironed out by the time the consumer versions are released, and become another pain in the arse when next consumer versions come out.

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So here they are, read and weep, cause ain't gonna be cheap..:cry:.

 

That doesn't look bad at all. I wouldn't consider building a less powerful game machine in the first place.

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I think everyone with a DK2 who plays DCS is finding that those specs are probably the minimum to play the DCS too. At least the Nevada map.

 

I still think there is something not quite right in DCS 2.0 at the moment. People with a GTX980 should be able to get a consistent 75fps on LOW setting. I am doing some experiments to work out what might be the problem.

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General release date is announced. April 2016.

 

7000 kits available to developers after Christmas.

 

Bad news for those expecting this thing to be available this year.

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General release date is announced. April 2016.

 

7000 kits available to developers after Christmas.

 

Bad news for those expecting this thing to be available this year.

 

april.... :(

 

Edit: actually that's not necessarily a bad thing, as that is probably when nVidia's new graphics cards will come out, so might work out very well.

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I'm not holding out much hope for the vive. At least not in a Valve/HTC partnership.

 

They've gone from an imminent consumer release to now a second dev kit with no warning and their executive director of global marketing has just jumped ship. It doesn't sit well.

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Win 10 64bit | i7 7700k delid @ 5.1gHz | 32Gb 3466mhz TridentZ memory | Asus ROG Apex motherboard | Asus ROG Strix 1080Ti overclocked

 

Komodosim Cyclic | C-tek anti torque pedals and collective | Warthog stick and throttle | Oculus Rift CV1 | KW-908 Jetseat | Buttkicker with Simshaker for Aviators

 

RiftFlyer VR G-Seat project: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2733051#post2733051

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Good news to have some proper dates. It is easier now to enjoy what we have and to make plans.

 

I will be working VR optimisation project for Caucasus Map. Seeking people who have experience

  • tweaking textures and lua configurations.
  • editing and modifying edterrain objects.
  • editing shaders

 

their executive director of global marketing has just jumped ship

Hah that doesn't worry me at all. If that worries you ... you worry too much.


Edited by vicx
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You always have to expect delays, and thought from the start that Vive's first announcement would be very difficult to accomplish, especially since their last prototypes, were still missing features like Audio, etc. I would imagine their next dev prototype will include the audio features, etc so software devs can better optimize their content.

 

Oculus should come out sooner than the Vive, but again the release dates should be close enough that it really doesn't matter, as most people will give specs/content/price a much higher priority.

 

This change in release timing, now gives Vive a slight edge, as Oculus will likely announce their Specs/Content bundle/Price first allowing Vive to counter. One example could be a better Content bundle, etc etc depending on the hardware /content/price contrasts.


Edited by Chivas
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I'm definitely excited for the Vive. I was a developer for the DK2 from Oculus but I had a few problems with it that I hope HTC and Valve have fixed somehow, namely simulator sickness.

 

I definitely won't be picking one up right away though. I'd rather wait to see what peoples impressions are and wait for more support to generate for it. Possibly a sale as well, but that may be asking too much. :D

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I'm definitely excited for the Vive. I was a developer for the DK2 from Oculus but I had a few problems with it that I hope HTC and Valve have fixed somehow, namely simulator sickness.

 

I definitely won't be picking one up right away though. I'd rather wait to see what peoples impressions are and wait for more support to generate for it. Possibly a sale as well, but that may be asking too much. :D

 

The Vive unit might well be the best VR product, but Oculus isn't selling the DK2 as the consumer version. I didn't like my DK2 either, as I couldn't adjust it to suit my IPD. I still have hopes as the CV1 will have a physical IPD adjustment, and the Eve Valkyrie devs suggest that first time users are playing their sim for hours with no simulator sickness problems.

 

I think the new VR hardware is beyond the simulation sickness problem for most people, BUT simulation sickness can still be a problem IF the software developers don't follow the VR best practices guide. They can create software that could make most people sick, no matter how good the hardware is.

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The HTC has suggested that the Vive was delayed because Valve made some sort of breakthrough design. Very interesting, hopefully its has something to do with improving the display resolution, or it could also be a very good tactic to make people second guess their decision to buy the Rift. OR more importantly slow down the hit their stocks are taking since the delay announcement.


Edited by Chivas
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HTC is suggesting that the consumer Vive changes will include better weight distribution. Currently the HMD weight is too far forward, so they are changing the strapping system etc for better balance. They are also changing the wands, for better balance. These changes can't be the technological breakthrough they've hinted at.

 

I'm assuming that Vive came to the realization that they couldn't compete with the Oculus price, and specs, so have delayed their headset to add whatever the tech breakthrough they've found to atleast compete, or dominate Oculus. depending on the quality of their tech breakthrough. Unless Oculus is really confident with their final specs, you can bet that Oculus is scrambling to find out what that tech breakthrough is.

 

Oculus and Vive have been experimenting with some sort HDR lighting display that will blow away any of the current HMD's. Valves techs say it gives an awesome experience before it melts down. Its a beach demo where the actually feel the heat of the sun, which could also be part of the problem. ;) So much so its very disappointing when they go back to the current headset tech. Interesting times.

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HTC is suggesting that the consumer Vive changes will include better weight distribution. Currently the HMD weight is too far forward, so they are changing the strapping system etc for better balance. They are also changing the wands, for better balance. These changes can't be the technological breakthrough they've hinted at.

 

I'm assuming that Vive came to the realization that they couldn't compete with the Oculus price, and specs, so have delayed their headset to add whatever the tech breakthrough they've found to atleast compete, or dominate Oculus. depending on the quality of their tech breakthrough. Unless Oculus is really confident with their final specs, you can bet that Oculus is scrambling to find out what that tech breakthrough is.

 

Oculus and Vive have been experimenting with some sort HDR lighting display that will blow away any of the current HMD's. Valves techs say it gives an awesome experience before it melts down. Its a beach demo where the actually feel the heat of the sun, which could also be part of the problem. ;) So much so its very disappointing when they go back to the current headset tech. Interesting times.

 

I would argue that the Vive is actually more advanced especially with its Lighthouse tracking and better wands. However, I have a feeling that the later release date, apparently lack of game support (from what I can see now at least) and the higher price tag will hurt them. I'll still pick one up though.

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I would argue that the Vive is actually more advanced especially with its Lighthouse tracking and better wands. However, I have a feeling that the later release date, apparently lack of game support (from what I can see now at least) and the higher price tag will hurt them. I'll still pick one up though.

 

 

Lighthouse may or may not be more advanced, and think there are pros and cons to each system. Both systems are still in flux so specs/features could easily change. Oculus current demos of the Touch inputs have put the two camera trackers more infront of the user, where it works better for the vast majority of current VR software content. There will be occlusion problems for any two component tracking system, unless Lighthouse can see thru the body, arms, hands, which it can't. Oculus looked all types of tracking systems, and I think they chose the camera system, because it made it easier ,and cheaper to track full body, and facial movement.

 

Personally I think the Oculus Touch inputs are better and more versatile than the Wands because of the added finger dexterity, and tracking feature. That said the Vive wands are going thru a major overhaul and could easily add a feature like that.

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Lighthouse may or may not be more advanced, and think there are pros and cons to each system. Both systems are still in flux so specs/features could easily change. Oculus current demos of the Touch inputs have put the two camera trackers more infront of the user, where it works better for the vast majority of current VR software content. There will be occlusion problems for any two component tracking system, unless Lighthouse can see thru the body, arms, hands, which it can't. Oculus looked all types of tracking, and I think they chose the camera system, because it made it easier ,and cheaper to track full body, and facial movement.

 

Except they ARE more advanced in terms of positioning, tracking and latency while also being significantly cheaper than the Oculus' cameras.

 

You can't really say that Oculus "looked at all the types of tracking" either because what they accomplished with Lighthouse was thinking straight out of the box. I bet if Oculus knew about it before, they would've gone with it instead. But at this point they are dedicated.

 

This being said, Oculus still has the advantage in terms of mainstream awareness and game support. Though Valve is making good strides in reaching out to the community especially with OpenVR.

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Except they ARE more advanced in terms of positioning, tracking and latency while also being significantly cheaper than the Oculus' cameras.

 

You can't really say that Oculus "looked at all the types of tracking" either because what they accomplished with Lighthouse was thinking straight out of the box. I bet if Oculus knew about it before, they would've gone with it instead. But at this point they are dedicated.

 

This being said, Oculus still has the advantage in terms of mainstream awareness and game support. Though Valve is making good strides in reaching out to the community especially with OpenVR.

 

Interesting I read that the Lighthouse tracking was significantly more expensive than the Oculus cameras, which is one of the reasons that the Vive system will more expensive. I read this quite sometime ago, but will try to find a link.

 

Palmer did state they looked at the Lighthouse tracking, but wanted something that would more easily track full body movement, and facial expression. One reason shop simulator only shows the hands in their demos, is there is a problem in that only the hands are tracked, and any difference between how the body is displayed, and its actual movement causes major problems for the user. Interestingly they found when only the hands are displayed, users imaginations just filled in the missing parts.


Edited by Chivas
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I couldn't find the link, but if I remember correctly, part of the reason is the more expensive active sensors on the Lighthouse system, as opposed to the less expensive passive sensors on the Constellation system. BUT it could be a wash if the cameras are more expensive than the Laser boxes.

 

One system may have lower latency numbers than the other, but users have experienced no noticeable difference in latencies in either system, so if one is slightly faster, does it really matter.

 

It doesn't take much imagination to figure out why Palmer would prefer full body, and facial expression tracking, that's easier to implement with cameras.


Edited by Chivas
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part of the reason is the more expensive active sensors on the Lighthouse system, as opposed to the less expensive passive sensors on the Constellation system

 

You have mixed up a few concepts in that statement. These videos should help you out.

 

How the lasers scan.

 

How the electronics work.

 

The sensors on the Lighthouse controllers and HMD are very simple components; no more complex or expensive than a basic photo-transistor. The sensor fusion on the controllers can be done by cheap micro-controllers. IMO the haptic part of the controllers is a way more complex than the positioning component and yet it too can be produced cheaply.

 

The Lighthouse emitters are not necessarily expensive to produce. The emitters I expect will have undergone serious industrial redesign and this is one area where I am very curious to see what the HTC engineers have come up with.

 

A Rift with one camera and xbone controller is going to be cheaper than a Vive with two lighthouse controllers and two lighthouse emitters. BUT a Rift with two cameras and two constellation touch controllers approaches parity with the Vive in terms of cost.

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You have mixed up a few concepts in that statement. These videos should help you out.

 

How the lasers scan.

 

How the electronics work.

 

The sensors on the Lighthouse controllers and HMD are very simple components; no more complex or expensive than a basic photo-transistor. The sensor fusion on the controllers can be done by cheap micro-controllers. IMO the haptic part of the controllers is a way more complex than the positioning component and yet it too can be produced cheaply.

 

The Lighthouse emitters are not necessarily expensive to produce. The emitters I expect will have undergone serious industrial redesign and this is one area where I am very curious to see what the HTC engineers have come up with.

 

A Rift with one camera and xbone controller is going to be cheaper than a Vive with two lighthouse controllers and two lighthouse emitters. BUT a Rift with two cameras and two constellation touch controllers approaches parity with the Vive in terms of cost.

 

My point still stands, the light points on the Rift headset/controllers don't pass data. The Lighthouse sensors do, and there are 19 sensors on each controller, and quite a few on the headset. The Lighthouse sensors could still be cheap, but not as cheap as the constellation passive diodes, or whatever they are on the Rift.

 

Both systems can have five parts, a headset, two controllers, and two trackers. All else being equal if one company sells their hardware near cost, as Oculus has suggested they will, then its quite likely the Vive system could be at least a hundred dollars more expensive. Not to mention Oculus partnership with Samsung could avail them custom displays at a cheaper price point than Vive. HTC does not manufacture their own displays, and would have to contract them out. No word yet, on Vives display manufacturer, or what type of contract/partnership they have with them.

 

Vive could obvious also sell their hardware near cost, but they haven't suggested they will. Considering HTC current problems, and the double digit loss in share price since the delay announcement, its unlikely they are in the mood to sell their hardware near cost.

 

If I were a betting man, I'd say Oculus had a considerable advantage. That said, Vive's delay, and the suggested reason for the delay could easily change the betting line. I'm not so sure, but hoping that the first consumer versions of VR headsets are good enough for flight sims. Hopefully whatever breakthrough Vive/Valve have made will make decent VR for flight sims more likely in the first consumer versions.

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My point still stands, the light points on the Rift headset/controllers don't pass data. The Lighthouse sensors do, and there are 19 sensors on each controller, and quite a few on the headset. The Lighthouse sensors could still be cheap, but not as cheap as the constellation passive diodes, or whatever they are on the Rift.

 

You aren't making ANY valid points about the controllers at all. Both the Vive and Oculus touch controllers require microcontrollers, as well as the standard 'instantaneous' motion sensors, batteries, battery charging circuits, wireless transceivers and haptics drivers. The cost of a dozen or more photo-diodes is a matter of a few cents.


Edited by vicx
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You aren't making ANY valid points about the controllers at all. Both the Vive and Oculus touch controllers require microcontrollers, as well as the standard 'instantaneous' motion sensors, batteries, battery charging circuits, wireless transceivers and haptics drivers. The cost of a dozen or more photo-diodes is a matter of a few cents.

 

 

http://metaversing.com/2015/03/24/examining-the-valvehtc-vive-ecosystem-basic-sensors-and-processing/

Not so sure why its so hard to understand. The Oculus Rift is just using dumb markers on the headset and inputs. They aren't connected to anything and don't have to transmit data. The Vive markers {Sensors}, must see, and send the angle, and timing of the laser pulses from the trackers. What would be more expensive, sixty sensors, or sixty dumb markers.

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