Valve/HTC Vive Discussion

[average_pilot]

Someone could make some serious coin by building a set of 1:1 pits, or a modular system that can let people print their own pits.

 

It's always interesting to read people's fresh VR experienes:

experiencing-htc-vive

Nice finding. There are less and less journalists without previous VR experience, but those are the most amusing articles to read.

[Chivas]

I never read the short statement or watched the video in the Oculus blog until now, about their purchase of Pebbles-interfaces. I think Vive's laser system is great, but wonder if this tech may be why Luckey and company might be more interested in optical tracking over laser. Combining inside/out, outside/in, optical tracking. This tech could eventually work very well for people with pits, as the Pebbles tech also tracks depth, so the system would know exactly where your hands are within the cockpit environment. No glove or Touch input required. Should also eventually work for those that need to see their keyboard, hotas systems.

 

https://www.oculus.com/en-us/blog/pebbles-interfaces-joins-oculus/

Edited September 17, 2015 by Chivas

[S3NTRY11]

I never read the short statement or watched the video in the Oculus blog until now, about their purchase of Pebbles-interfaces. I think Vive's laser system is great, but wonder if this tech may be why Luckey and company might be more interested in optical tracking over laser. Combining inside/out, outside/in, optical tracking. This tech could eventually work very well for people with pits, as the Pebbles tech also tracks depth, so the system would know exactly where your hands are within the cockpit environment. No glove or Touch input required. Should also eventually work for those that need to see their keyboard, hotas systems.

 

https://www.oculus.com/en-us/blog/pebbles-interfaces-joins-oculus/

 

So basically... Kinect / Leapmotion? :wink:

 

How would this work for seeing your keyboard/hotas? I don't see how that would work, but I might be missing something.

 

If this is the direction Oculus are heading in, this not a good thing, in my opinion.

I mean in the specific sense, this means that to use your hands, you have to be looking at them, which may not always be practical, say for example, if you're in a virtual cockpit...

In a broader sense, the problems with this type of tracking, as previously stated, are the problems with Kinect, and all image-based tracking systems. Not to mention the complete lack of feedback from gloves, or peripherals like Touch.

 

I might eat my words one day, but the more I see of Oculus tech, the more I'm convinced Vive are heading in the best direction, and that Oculus are painting themselves into a corner with their tracking system. Particularly for the more "virtually tangible" interactive experiences.

 

Ultimately, I would say the winner will be those that can cherry-pick the best tech from VR as a whole. And that wont happen until at least gen2. Well, perhaps I shouldn't say "winner", because it's all pretty great for us consumers, so we're the winners, really.

 

All-in-all, time will tell.

And its always interesting to see who's being acquired by whom. Thanks for sharing, Chivas.

[average_pilot]

How would this work for seeing your keyboard/hotas? I don't see how that would work, but I might be missing something.

You can make things from the real world appear inside the virtual one, like user's body or the keyboard.

[S3NTRY11]

You can make things from the real world appear inside the virtual one, like user's body or the keyboard.

 

Yes, but how? It looks like it is tracking IR or similar, which would not work so well for something that is ambient temp?

[average_pilot]

Yes, but how? It looks like it is tracking IR or similar, which would not work so well for something that is ambient temp?

Not sure how, but I saw at least one video using kinect to show the keyboard inside the Rift (just a shaky, incomplete, white rectangle)

[Python]

Nice idea, but I doubt we could get such a thing working with current tech.

[Chivas]

Nice idea, but I doubt we could get such a thing working with current tech.

 

Exactly why Oculus is creating new tech, and buying companies that are creating new tech. This will continue until VR/AR is the size of sunglasses, and beyond.

[Rogue Trooper]

I think the HOTAS concept needs to be expanded (button wise) to see us through the early years of VR headsets.

[Chivas]

So basically... Kinect / Leapmotion? :wink:

 

How would this work for seeing your keyboard/hotas? I don't see how that would work, but I might be missing something.

 

If this is the direction Oculus are heading in, this not a good thing, in my opinion.

I mean in the specific sense, this means that to use your hands, you have to be looking at them, which may not always be practical, say for example, if you're in a virtual cockpit...

In a broader sense, the problems with this type of tracking, as previously stated, are the problems with Kinect, and all image-based tracking systems. Not to mention the complete lack of feedback from gloves, or peripherals like Touch.

 

I might eat my words one day, but the more I see of Oculus tech, the more I'm convinced Vive are heading in the best direction, and that Oculus are painting themselves into a corner with their tracking system. Particularly for the more "virtually tangible" interactive experiences.

 

Ultimately, I would say the winner will be those that can cherry-pick the best tech from VR as a whole. And that wont happen until at least gen2. Well, perhaps I shouldn't say "winner", because it's all pretty great for us consumers, so we're the winners, really.

 

All-in-all, time will tell.

And its always interesting to see who's being acquired by whom. Thanks for sharing, Chivas.

 

I have no idea how it all will work, or what consumer version the new tech will be enabled, if at all, but it appears that the HMD optics are mapping the hands. If they can map the hands they can map anything like a pit, or keyboard. External optics cameras will map the body, hands, and facial expressions. As a side note, rumour has it that the new Gear VR smartphones will have depth sensors.

 

Yes, we are the winners, as it appears that VR has almost unlimited monies being thrown at the tech required to make it happen. Not to mention that Oculus latest statements suggest they are still planning to sell their tech near cost to make VR as affordable as possible. Although that isn't good news for any of their competition, and could stunt some of the competition. If the competition doesn't price match, they have no choice but to develop better tech to compete, which won't be easy since Oculus has a huge highly talented VR work force, and have bought quite a number of companies that are VR relevant. BUT it only takes one man to come up with the right idea.:)

[Chivas]

I think the HOTAS concept needs to be expanded (button wise) to see us through the early years of VR headsets.

 

The current HOTAS systems like X55 etc are more than capable for WW2 sims, specially the mode button that can more than triple the amount of buttons, but not so sure about modern aircraft sims. VAC systems can fill in many of the blanks.

[Rogue Trooper]

Yes they are fine for WWII and then some, but no good for complex airframes where quick data access, weapon control, sensor modes and defensive mechanisms are required for modern aircraft.

[luckyhendrix]

Yes they are fine for WWII and then some, but no good for complex airframes where quick data access, weapon control, sensor modes and defensive mechanisms are required for modern aircraft.

No i dont think you understand the concept of hotas. "Hands on Throttle and stick" which mean that with a properly configured hotas setup you should never have to reach for any controls during a combat phase. It is the case with the a-10.

And with a bit of head scratching you can reproduce that even with aircrafts that are not originally equipped with HOTAS, it did it for the mig21 for instance.

 

Outside of combat phase you will need to let go of the Throttle to push buttons, but then there is more time as it is a less tense situation.

[Rogue Trooper]

Yeah perhaps.... as mentioned in the previous post, the mode button would become more relevant with VR than the way I currently use it and is probably the answer.

 

At the moment I use the mode switch as an aircraft choice via the target software. The I/O and U/M/D gives me 6 aircraft on one Target script.

Target is the only way I go at the mo as the alternatives are just not worth the bother.

 

So yes with VR this is do-able for you but not for my requirements but is a choice I could adapt to if need be....

 

With the A10 sensor of interest and floating button assignment it is easier.

With the Russian chopper button mash and other various aircraft I fly in depth it is more difficult.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Rogue Trooper

[S3NTRY11]

Yes they are fine for WWII and then some, but no good for complex airframes where quick data access, weapon control, sensor modes and defensive mechanisms are required for modern aircraft.

Even more so, things like the CDU and upfront panels with more complex or numerous inputs are difficult to map and use reliably, with a HOTAS.

 

The most obvious solution in my mind (in lieu of accurate physical 1:1 pit model), would be tracked gloves with built-in haptics. It removes so many issues, and would be so intuitive.

[S3NTRY11]

A heads up, so to speak :)

The HTC Vive truck is in Boston this weekend, should anyone want to demo it.

(1350 Boylston Street)

https://twitter.com/hashtag/HTCViveLive?src=hash

 

That's just mean :cry:

[hansangb]

THANK You! I'm right across the river this Sunday. I'll have to try and see what I can do about checking it out.

 

Hsb

[Chivas]

Elite Dangerous has announced support for the HTC Vive, and hope to have that support ready for the HTC Vive release this year. If they are able to complete implementation, and the Vive is actually available to the general public this year, I will definitely put more consideration into buying the Vive. The fact that ED are successfully implementing VIVE support, it bodes well for DCS's potential Vive implementation, but there are still far to many unknowns on the difference between the Rift and Vive to make a wise decision.

[Python]

I'm really liking the look of the vive. But ultimately I'll buy the headset with the best screen and overall performance. I'm certainly not rushing in to a purchase. I've waited this long anyway..

[S3NTRY11]

Elite Dangerous has announced support for the HTC Vive, and hope to have that support ready for the HTC Vive release this year. If they are able to complete implementation, and the Vive is actually available to the general public this year, I will definitely put more consideration into buying the Vive. The fact that ED are successfully implementing VIVE support, it bodes well for DCS's potential Vive implementation, but there are still far to many unknowns on the difference between the Rift and Vive to make a wise decision.

I might actually start playing again!

Thanks for the heads-up!

[Rogue Trooper]

Even more so, things like the CDU and upfront panels with more complex or numerous inputs are difficult to map and use reliably, with a HOTAS.

 

The most obvious solution in my mind (in lieu of accurate physical 1:1 pit model), would be tracked gloves with built-in haptics. It removes so many issues, and would be so intuitive.

 

Tracked gloves would be the best solution with an in VR pit pointer for each finger.

I am not even sure about a real and perfectly built 1:1 scale pit as this would require perfect alignment with the VR pit and spot on head calibration. This may prove problematic for the MFDs let alone the close button proximity of the navigation control panels (A10, KA-50)

[S3NTRY11]

Tracked gloves would be the best solution with an in VR pit pointer for each finger.

I am not even sure about a real and perfectly built 1:1 scale pit as this would require perfect alignment with the VR pit and spot on head calibration. This may prove problematic for the MFDs let alone the close button proximity of the navigation control panels (A10, KA-50)

All I can say is, you nailed it.

[Chivas]

All I can say is after time and training your self you can operate mfds no problem while under vr in a 1/1 ish scale pit to the vr one. I think some are over complicating this and don't realize that you can train your self to operate with anything in regards to vr setups. I think most who bash it or say oh that's just not possible don't have the time under their belt and or the hand eye and train ability to begin with. Vr in the sim world will not be for everybody. We see that in the military, works for some and others fall on their face so to speak.

I highly recommend a somewhat 1/1 pit and practice and muscle memory, it will become more real than antithetical experience out their.

 

I agree, it becomes quite easy to find the correct switch etc with very little practice. I don't know about jet pilots but WW2 pilots were trained to find their aircraft systems blindfolded. BUT I'm a little bias as I have little interested in jet systems/aircraft and more interested in the far less complicated WW2 aircraft pits currently in DCS development.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Chivas

[S3NTRY11]

All I can say is after time and training your self you can operate mfds no problem while under vr in a 1/1 ish scale pit to the vr one. I think some are over complicating this and don't realize that you can train your self to operate with anything in regards to vr setups. I think most who bash it or say oh that's just not possible don't have the time under their belt and or the hand eye and train ability to begin with. Vr in the sim world will not be for everybody. We see that in the military, works for some and others fall on their face so to speak.

I highly recommend a somewhat 1/1 pit and practice and muscle memory, it will become more real than antithetical experience out their.

 

Although a 1:1 pit would be great, I think, in spite of the fact you'd get used to it and muscle memory would kick in, haptic gloves would make ANY cockpit 1:1. Much more versatile. And, no issues with physical pits being slightly out of calibration. Not to mention the extreme difficulty in achieving a true physical 1:1.

Edited September 22, 2015 by S3NTRY11

[Mode1961]

Vive

 

Have the devs had a chance to test out the Vive yet. I know you guys got your dev kit some time ago.