Valve/HTC Vive Discussion

[cichlidfan]

I don't have enough floor space to do that with a Vive in anything larger than a response boat, ...

 

Perhaps not, but you might be all set for a good submarine simulation. :D

[Chivas]

OK, I got to try out the HTC Vive demo.

So, is the hype for real? Oh yes!

Is the Vive a game changer? Absolutely!

Is it perfect? Well, no..

 

Rather than describe the HTC Vive demo's which has already been done better than I ever could by many others, I'd like to give my personal opinions and views of the Vive as I saw it, geared toward DCS World, as this is the DCS forums.

 

First, I'd like to expound on three of the tough and controversial topics which I've read about on these forums and other places, which are, 1) the Rift vs. the Vive, 2) resolution, and 3) cost.

 

Rift vs Vive, there's just no way to sugar coat this, as far as we know the Rift and Vive are two similar products except for one major philosophical difference, and that's the seated or constrained tracking vs room scale tracking experience. Simply put, after this demo, virtual reality in NOT meant to be a seated or constrained experience, virtual reality is meant to be dynamic, fluid, and in full motion, and that's with your whole body. Sorry OR, but you got this one wrong, major wrong.

 

Some have wrote, that 3 x 3 meters is maybe too much space, but during the demo, in the back of my mind, I kept thinking, wow, need more space, must have more space!!

My living room is 14 x 20 feet (4.3 x 6.1 meters) and it would make an absolutely perfect VR room, but as my Misses isn't gonna let me re-decor the living room with nothing in it but a couple of disco lasers in the ceiling corners (I tried, even said it'd make an wonderful dance floor), I'm going to throw an air-conditioner into the garage, 19 x 20 feet (5.8 x 6.1 meters) and I would love to use every cubic inch of it!

But, what would room scale ever do for DCS World? Read on a little farther...

 

Resolution, is everything in a high fidelity air combat simulation such as DCS world for many, and the best I can say from the demo's experience is, it's adequate.

Problem with the demo is, it went too fast, so just didn't have time to really study the "text". "I think" we should be able to read the small print on the HUD's, placards, and instrument panels with no problems, but, as for the P/N and S/N on the back of your P-51's altimeter, not gonna happen.

And as far as target tracking goes, all the young super pilots that can spot that camouflaged VW Beetle hidden in the tree lines from 20 miles out, ain't gonna happen, but, the good news is for us more mature, wiser pilots who have some difficulty finding the Hindenburg from 10 miles out, well, it level's the playing field somewhat.

 

And then there's the Cost and Hardware. In my opinion, the Vive is going to be a premium product, at a premium price, and will require premium hardware. I'm talking the kind of hardware that dims your neighborhood's streetlights when you boot it up. It's one thing to go through a Aperture Science demo with a robot with a few moving parts, and quite another thing in a couple years from now when your stepping onto Omaha Beach the morning of June 6th, 1944. If your hardware's not up to it, you'll be just as green on the inside and outside as those G.I.'s really were. If whatever you build for the Vive today is adequate, in 24 months from now, it's not going to be. You will really need to think this one through. For those on a really tight budget, but really want good VR, then the Rift maybe the best choice. But for those who can work a little extra (OK, a lot) of overtime, I'd go with the Vive.

 

So, how could room scale ever fit in with DCS world?

I could easily think of a hundred differing ways, but, one of my first thoughts was Combined Arms, and I'd be surprised if Mr. Wagner or Chizh hasn't already thought of this, and hoping I'm not letting a cat out of the bag.

Imagine a Tactical Operation Center (TOC) that is 5 x 5 meters, with a 3 x 3 meter map table in the middle of it. On the map table is displayed a 3Dimensional map, it could be displayed as a topographical map view, satellite map view, tactical view or any combination. You could touch an object or unit to bring up information on it, or a view of it, grab and move this information to one of the TOC perimeter walls. Or you could touch a spot on the map, and in an instant be standing in that place with binoculars in hand, and the TOC could be placed anywhere on the map we choose, in a tent, or in a building.

In essence, only our imagination (and budget) is the limit.

Another concept for example, should ED ever think it wise, is imagine standing in a DCS fully detailed control center of a U-Boat while being depth charged, or imagine the experience of watching a beautiful sunrise on the deck of the U.S.S. Arizona the morning of December 7th, 1941.

 

Truly only our imagination is going to be the limit to this technology.

 

I think Oculus got it right. I will be able to buy a Rift much cheaper, as I won't need the Wands, or two Tracking units for flight/racing sims etc. If I want to have full room movement I can buy the Touch units, and extra Tracking unit later.

 

Not sure why people keep suggesting that the Rift is only a seated experience. I found it funny that Vive also has the same problem having to continually stress at shows, that they can do sitting as well as standing. Oculus has been showing standing and movement long before we even new Vive was going to sell an HMD. They weren't stressing that option because there was the obvious safety issues moving around blind, few people would have the room, and the fact there was little software being created for that kind of movement at the time.

[JLX]

OK, I got to try out the HTC Vive demo.

So, is the hype for real? Oh yes!

 

Thanks for the report DE! Nice to hear a DCS-centric opinion that confirms what many others have reported around the interwebs.

 

This reinforces my decision to definitely grab the Vive and only more optionally consider the Rift. Here's hoping DCS will have support for both ready by their respective launches.

 

[DigitalEngine]

Thanks for the report DE! Nice to hear a DCS-centric opinion that confirms what many others have reported around the interwebs.

 

This reinforces my decision to definitely grab the Vive and only more optionally consider the Rift. Here's hoping DCS will have support for both ready by their respective launches.

 

 

Thanks JLX, but keep in mind I posted this opinion in this thread because it is the Vive thread and it's only my opinion, and we will be using the Vive for specific capabilities,

so keep your options open, if you can only afford to purchase one or the other, I'd strongly advise not to order anything until both consumer versions are released, and you can thoroughly test drive them both, then make your finial decision on what fits you.

 

As Chivas pointed out above, if you have a set budget, whether big or small, and Rift meets your use and space requirements, your very likely better off with putting the extra funds from the difference of the Rift over the Vive into hardware, cause one thing I realized from the demo is once developers get wrapped around this stuff, it's going to get insane.

 

I've also read somewhere (don't remember where) that Samsung might (so don't take it for fact) be developing "custom" displays for the Rift, and that could change everything, like in my review, resolution is everything for some applications, and DCS is one of them.

Edited October 23, 2015 by DigitalEngine

[DigitalEngine]

Vive Truck and Test Video

 

The HTC Vive truck will be in Austin, Texas this weekend should anyone there like to demo it.

 

Still no "Official" news on when HTC or Valve would like to take our cold hard cash (or plastic).

Or, from the DCS World+Vive front since August (that I'm aware of that is).

 

Seems as if all "official information" is Classified and locked up tighter than an NSA phone book :lock: :shifty:.

 

Even so, the SteamVR Beta updates seems to be coming out at a fairly good clip now.

 

And while we're waiting, below is a interesting video of a quick impromptu lighthouse tracking system test posted on Youtube by "Convrge VR".

 

Edited November 6, 2015 by DigitalEngine
Fixed "HTC Vive truck" link

[DigitalEngine]

HTC Interview

 

Interview: JB McRee of HTC talks about Vive and the future of Virtual Reality.

By Holly Brockwell at Gadgette.com

 

And the HTC Vive Truck is still in Austin this weekend.

[vicx]

As much as I am interested in all the possibilities of VR I am a bit fixated on DCS interoperability.

 

If I was going to be shown a demo I would really want it to be DCS related. I hope Vive outreach is making it all the way to Russia and that Vive support is being baked into DCS 2.0 with lots of love.

[Wags]

DCS World is now working in Vive and we are currently testing the VR game controllers for cockpit interaction.

[JLX]

DCS World is now working in Vive and we are currently testing the VR game controllers for cockpit interaction.

FANTASTIC!

[Chivas]

DCS World is now working in Vive and we are currently testing the VR game controllers for cockpit interaction.

 

 

Its awesome that DCS appears to be effectively implementing the HTC Vive headset. I may be able to fly DCS this year with a consumer version headset, but there are still a lot of unanswered questions about final specs of either unit Even if the specs are comparable it may be difficult to procure the Vive even if they manage the proposed "limited" release this year. Now that DCS is working with HTC, and Oculus, it would sure help to find out which unit the developers preferred but its unlikely they will suggest one way or the other anytime soon. We don't even know it they have access to later prototypes than the DK2

[vicx]

DCS World is now working in Vive

 

MASSIVE NEWS - I've decided to be a Day Zero Vive Owner.

 

I'm happy beta testing - noone expects the cutting edge to be perfect.

[Quantenpresbyterianer]

MASSIVE NEWS - I've decided to be a Day Zero Vive Owner.

 

There could be few other people who have decided the same. :(

And that will make it difficult/unlikely to get one from the first batch.

[tommytank]

Will it only work in steam?

[PiedDroit]

Will it only work in steam?

Most extremely probably not. That would be equivalent to shoot a 30mm shell in one's foot.

[Chivas]

There could be few other people who have decided the same. :(

And that will make it difficult/unlikely to get one from the first batch.

 

I'm surprised at how many people in this and other forums have decided to buy one over the other, when nobody knows the final specs, content, and price of either one yet.

[Brisse]

I'm surprised at how many people in this and other forums have decided to buy one over the other, when nobody knows the final specs, content, and price of either one yet.

 

Indeed. Ignorant consumer practises and hype can really drive sales in this day and age, and don't even get me started on pre-orders, where people throw money at things that don't yet exists. How hard is it to just wait until the product is finished and then read some unbiased reviews before making a properly informed decision?

[hansangb]

Most of the specs are known at this point. Price is still TBD, but I'm guessing people have a range that's acceptable to them. And "saying" one will buy doesn't mean that they will. And some folks just want it sooner rather than later. The same folks who wait in line at 10PM for a phone release in the morning. To each his own - doesn't bother me in the least, if I'm honest.

 

hsb

[Brisse]

Most of the specs are known at this point.

 

We know the resolution of the displays, the approximate field of view and roughly how the head tracking systems work for both the Vive and the Rift. This is not nearly enough for me. I understand that when it comes to VR there will be a lot more than just tech specs that goes into making a decision. Tech specs can't tell you how comfortable a certain headset is. It can't tell you how durable it is. Opinions from people who review several headsets will be able to tell you however. We will see a lot of such reviews when both the Vive and Rift has hit the market.

 

By the way, price of the Rift will be 350-400USD if you didn't know. That includes an xbone-controller with a wireless adapter which I find kinda silly because many people already have one. I would rather not have that, and pay slightly less instead.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Brisse

[Chivas]

The devils in the details. Details can make a huge difference in the quality of the experience. We don't know the Pixel count, Sub-Pixel arrangement, color, details on the different VR custom lenses, and how well the VR optic software combines the qualities of the custom lenses, with the particular display used.

 

There are over forty OLED display manufacturers, and Oculus has a partnership with one of them {Samsung} who could manufacturer a custom display with better VR qualities, at a cheaper price point. I don't know if HTC manufacturers displays, or has to contract out the display, and if so is their display manufacturer interested in making displays with better VR qualities at this time. Samsung has manufactured smartphone displays with VR features for their GearVR headsets. We don't know if those displays have any hidden VR features that will also work well with the Rift, or have they made a custom VR display explicitly for the Rift.

 

There are far too many unanswered questions. Many of those questions could be answered when both units are open to preorders near the end of this year. I will preorder the best VR unit for the flight sims I want to fly, even if one cost a few hundred dollars more than the other. I just don't know yet. I jumped on the Oculus bandwagon long before I new Vive would be on the market. I haven't seen anything yet from Vive that would make me think they will be better for flight sims. I could easily change my mind, but will wait for more facts to immerge.

[Chivas]

"My brief spell with the HTC and Valve’s VR effort was unlike anything I’d ever experienced. Even having tested out the upcoming PlayStation VR, and a brief spin on the Oculus Rift, the VIVE was an entirely new kettle of fish. It was just way too real. In the best way."

 

http://www.stuff.tv/me/features/htc-vive-hands-1

 

That would mean something to me if the reviewer had stated which Oculus Rift prototype he had a brief spin on. I just did a quick perusal of his review and noted a few mistakes like stating the Vive was only 90hz while the Rift is 120 hz. Both the latest Vive and Rift prototypes are 90hz. No word yet if those specs have changed unless he has some inside knowledge, which I doubt.

[Brisse]

But the fact that the author got the specs of the Rift completely wrong is proof enough that he/she isn't to be taken too seriously. Also, the author most likely have not tested the consumer version of the Rift, which looks like a big improvement over the developer kits. Hell, I have even seen people confuse the Gear VR for the Rift. Would you take the advice of such a person seriously? I know I wouldn't.

[Brisse]

But you are right, the consumer versions of either could change everything, or not.

 

Exactly. There's just no way to know for sure at the moment. We just have too wait and see.

[Chivas]

I'm still currently leaning toward the Rift, because of Oculus's huge advantage in human/financial resourses, partnerships, years of content investment/support, and the purchace of more than a few Tech companies that could significantly add to their consumer product. Of course other developers could still develop a better mouse trap with a killer app. At this point knowing which developer will make the best first consumer version is unknowable, and writing off Oculus is folly.

 

By far most of the reviews by professional, and amateur reviewers compared the Vive with earlier Rift prototypes. There is no doubt that the Vive is a very good HMD, but these reviews were truly misleading, especially for people who haven't followed the VR headset progression.

 

The few reviews I've seen that actually compared the latest prototypes, could see little difference between the quality of the headsets, and tracking latencies. The only difference is the amount of freedom of movement, that is not relavent in the combat flight sim contect. The actual amount of movement is still an unknown, until the Touch inputs, Rift dual tracker prototypes are further along in development, and Vive tracking optimized.

 

It would be nice to be able to run from the Ready Hut to our aircraft, or walkaround aircraft checks, but that can't be simulated in a 15x15 room. The teleportation feature in the Rift bullet demo may be an option, or just running/walking on a spot, but that could be simulated with 4x4 tracking. I don't get the 15x15 roomscale movement hype, its actually still too small an area to really simulate much. I suppose it could simulate racket ball/handball or some aspects of submarine sims quite well. Large area/multi room commercial VR arcades could work very well.

 

At this point few people if any actually know which unit will be better, especially for flight sims. Nobody has been able to compare the final versions of either unit. We've seen the latest prototypes, but for obvious reasons they've withheld some of the specs of these devices, suggesting they could change, and other features added. The Rift/Vive developmers currently watching their consumer versions coming off their assembly lines are wondering if their products are actually better. There is a reason the actual final specs/features/content/price are being kept a secret by both developments.

[VincentLaw]

I don't get the 15x15 roomscale movement hype, its actually still too small an area to really simulate much.

I don't even have a 15 x 15 space. If I tried moving around in that I'd just end up crashing into stuff. It will most likely not be a factor for me in deciding on one of these. I will be sitting in a chair most of the time while playing games anyway.

[DigitalEngine]

"DCS World is now working in Vive..."

That is Big news!! Thank you Eagle Dynamics Development team!! :beer:

"...and we are currently testing the VR game controllers for cockpit interaction."

it will be really interesting to see how this works out....:)

 

The HTC Vive truck is in Phoenix AZ, 125 E Washington St. this weekend for any DCS World fans there!!