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Keyboard Assignments in 12.15 missing


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I tried to update my HOTAS given the modifications to key assignments in the 12.15 version.

I discovered missing key assignments in comparison to the clickable cockpit keys.

Examples:

Mass Key/Mass Switch unassigned

HYD2 Reset unassigned

Cockpit Air Control unassigned

Airbrake duplicated with Air Brake (note space)

Attention Lights (reset) unassigned

 

This list may be incomplete. What has to be done is the keyboard assignments should be reviewed against the clickable cockpit keys and the Quick Start and Weapons Deployment documentation to insure completeness. That review obviously was not done for the 12.15 version.

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3rd Mar Div

RVN '66-'67

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Edit >>

 

Hyd2 reset is in there, check within Systems

Also Mass key, Pitot, anti-skid and landing/taxi light in relevant categories below.

 

 

'Pitot Heat On/Off', category = 'Systems'},
'Anti-Skid On/Off', category = 'Systems'},
'Hydraulic 2 Reset', category = 'Engine Start'},
'Landing/Taxi Light', category = 'Lighting'},
"MASS Key", category = "Weapons"},
"MASS Switch", category = "Weapons"},

 

I'll check Airbrake conflict and attn lights.


Edited by Ells228
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The Key is listed within the category but no key is assigned. Is the default keyboard LUA set up so the user can assign a key?

Thanks for the response.

 

Edit: Ok Chris. I went into the sim and assigned keys to those items that were without key assignments (your list + a couple others).

I noticed another duplicate in Kneeboard: "Map current position" (it's obvious when you look at the kneeboard section).

 

There are many key labels that do not have a key assignment, I believe that the key label is not used in the Hawk but it's hard to tell. If you can point me to some reference, I'll be happy to help review and list what should be deleted.


Edited by jjohnson241

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3rd Mar Div

RVN '66-'67

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Yes there are a few that are blank so you can assign whatever keys you want to them. This is actually the same for most modules I've seen.

 

Thanks on the kneeboard, that's a default ED one so I'll take a look at that as well.

 

Key label is defined in clickabledata.lua it's the bit in speech marks "Pitot Heat On/Off" Etc.

You have to set tool tips to "on" in the mission editor for them to show up in-sim.

 

The joystick commands is a copy of the keyboard commands with a couple of changes which are joystick specific.

 

Also for now no radio panels have been defined as we go through the bugs in radios. When they're working we'll update the keyboard and joystick profiles so you can add them too.

 

Thanks,

C

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Sanity Check:

If I want to review all clickable controls against the content (control label) of the controls listed in "Options", I would compare the list of controls to the content of "clickabledata.lua" and note the differences.

True?

 

I understand the situation with the Radio panels.

 

While your checking, look also at the key labels and key assignments for the flaps. The "Custom" section remains with 2 key labels for flaps up/down. I assume that's dead and should be removed. There are other label for flaps toggle and up/down in increments with the key assignments blank. Take a look.

Thanks.

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3rd Mar Div

RVN '66-'67

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Yes clickabledata is for the mouse input (and mouse hover over tool tips).

The Input folder; keyboard and joystick respectively are for those inputs.

 

All labels are defined in clickabledata for every mouse click available in the cockpit. Don't sanity check the labels in cockpit, they are all there, as you can see in clcikabledata.

 

If you want to sanity check what is defined in clickable and not in keyboard/joystick then that would help yes.

 

However bear in mind that some things may not be available by keyboard or joystick and have to be clicked.

 

An example might be tuning the radios. Having one set of keys for decimals, units, tens and thousands frequency up and another set of keys for down you'll soon run out of keyboard keys to use.

In this instance though we can add code to "increase" and "decrease" radio frequency using only two keys per radio. But it would take a long time to tune it.

 

We currently have about 170 assignments in clickabledata for the Hawk cockpit, and it's a fairly simple cockpit.

 

The keyboard has about 75 keys and 5 reformers (LShift, LAlt, LCtrl, RShift, RCtrl) you can use giving you 375 available keys.

A lot of keys are already assigned as default ones by ED (close to 200+), leaving roughly 175 we can use, which as you can see is very close to max limit for Hawk cockpit currently.

 

Flaps are all under "Flight Control", I'd suggest you might have some controls left over in your Saved Games folder which is causing possible conflicts.

As you can see from the screenshot, no Custom Keys there any more.

 

I'd suggest you delete the following folder:

Saved Games\DCS\Config\Input\Hawk

 

This WILL DELETE all saved bindings so far though so be aware.

 

Thanks,

C.

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An example might be tuning the radios. Having one set of keys for decimals, units, tens and thousands frequency up and another set of keys for down you'll soon run out of keyboard keys to use.

In this instance though we can add code to "increase" and "decrease" radio frequency using only two keys per radio. But it would take a long time to tune it.

This is not a problem for other modules. For example, the A-10C - as probably the most complex one up to now, does exactly that for the 3 comm radios plus ILS and TACAN.

 

The keyboard has about 75 keys and 5 reformers (LShift, LAlt, LCtrl, RShift, RCtrl) you can use giving you 375 available keys.

A lot of keys are already assigned as default ones by ED (close to 200+), leaving roughly 175 we can use, which as you can see is very close to max limit for Hawk cockpit currently.

Several thoughts here:

a) You can combine the reformers. I am not sure if all thinkable permutations are possible, but you certainly end with more than 75 key * 5 reformers = 375 key combos. For example, nothing hinders you to define something like LSHIFT+LCTRL+x or RCTRL+LALT+LSHIFT+y. Someone with better math skills than me can calculate that the number of possible key combos probably exceeds 1000 easily.

b) alone the A-10C has already over 800 keys defined in input\keyboard\default.lua. Think of all the MFD buttons, CDU keyboard, etc.

c) 200+ DCS default mappings? In common_keyboard_binding.lua are 160 mappings defined. Afaik the 86 mappings in base_keyboard_binding.lua are only relevant for FC3 aircraft and should be obsolete at least when the EFM is ready.

 

LNS even mapped every single position of rotaries to separate key combos. Great for home pit builder (great for pit builders, but the lack of simple "rotary left" and "rotary right" mappings make it a bit difficult for users of more ... simple hardware ... but that is a different story anyway).

 

What I am trying to say is, the control mapping mechanism is very flexible and mighty and you should make the best use of it ... to avoid the problems that seem to grow as the number of available modules grow: unnecessary inconsistencies across the different modules.

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You last response got me looking. I had a Joystick default LUA (dated 12-26-14) that still had all the "Custom Keys" added by Tango included. I ended up deleting and reinstalling the Hawk and that cleared up the key assignments.

I also deleted the Hawk config/input folders from saved-games.

 

One thing that remains a problem: for the assignments that are labeled 'Joystick", e.g., Flap Detent Up/Down, those assignments can not be changed in the Options. The Options will not accept the joystick button when pressed. Please look at that.

 

Sorry for the fire drill otherwise. I was not deleting the Hawk before applying the Installer de jour. My bad.

 

Edit: How about kicking some a__ at DCS and getting this thing fully integrated in Module Manager, the updater, etc.


Edited by jjohnson241

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3rd Mar Div

RVN '66-'67

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I've checked my flaps setting for joystick and they're working for me.

 

I have a TM Warthog and select flap lever to middle, then assign the up switch to flaps prev detent and down switch to next detent and works ok.

 

No probs :)

 

Working on that...stay tuned

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I run with a Combined Joystick/Throttle map produced via TM Target software. Using that map, Flap assignments cannot be made in Options.

Try it.

I posted here when the Hawk was first released (http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=135179 regarding that problem and I never saw a response.

I don't understand why assignments can't be made to a "Combined" map???

 

Edit: I can't assign the Idle Detent using the Warthog throttle either, again using a combined map. I looked at the default Joystick LUA and the entries are there. I can't figure it out but I know I want to use a combined map. I use such for all other aircraft.

 

Edit 2: In the LUA (default) for Joystick I see entries for the flaps but these entries are not in the default LUA for the keyboard. I looked at other aircraft and the joystick LUA entries and mimicked in the keyboard LUA. Don't know if that is the reason that in a combined map you can't assign flap keys and idle detent to the throttle.

 

Edit 3: Tried a Quick mission using keyboard only. Tried Flaps (F6/F7 as defined in Keyboard LUA) and Airbrake (B). Neither moved. So, you can't fly the Hawk using the keyboard. I don't believe the keys are defined for Flaps, idle detent, etc. or if they are it's not in the correct place. I know nothing about LUA's in that regard.

HELP

 

Edit 4: Continued to play with it. The flight control keys with "Joystick" in their label cannot be assigned in options, either using the actual button on the throttle or the keyboard. I imagine it has something to do with how the keys are defined in the LUA. Again, this is happening using a combined map.


Edited by jjohnson241

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3rd Mar Div

RVN '66-'67

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I finally got the combined map to work by installing a mod that adds the "joystick" lua entries to the "keyboard" LUA. I started with the Flaps and they seemed to work. I have to check now that all "Joystick" LUA entries are included in the Keyboard LUA. If they're not, you can't assign a key (or a HOTAS button) to the function.

 

Chris, you need to spend some time with this and straighten it out. We should be able to run a combined map without all these gyrations.

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3rd Mar Div

RVN '66-'67

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Well, we design the keyboard and joystick mappings to work within DCS World using assignments within DCS World Options, which they do work.

 

If you run software like Target, other joystick software or other hardware interface mapping software we can't be held responsible for them not working.

 

We will do our best to accommodate them but in terms of "straightening them out" as you put it, that's not down to us.

 

They work in DCS controller Options which is our requirement.

 

Thanks,

Chris.

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TM Target does not modify any DCS control inputs.

All DCS aircraft operate correctly using TM Combined Maps. I'll add CH products to that list also.

There is a convention regarding LUA content. Apparently, there is a need to duplicate a control item in both the Joystick and Keyboard LUA's in order to insure that a key can be assigned in the Options applet in DCS.

When you modified the LUA's for the Hawk, you did not duplicate all controls labeled "Joystick".

Look at the Joystick LUA for the Flaps entries (up and down) that have "Joystick" in the name. Now look at the Keyboard LUA and you'll notice that the Flaps entries are missing.

That's the problem that prevents anyone using the keyboard or a combined controller map from inputting that control (flaps in this case).

If you do a little homework re: target and combined TM maps, you won't be confused again.

 

Your "full requirement" is to support you customer who is using the application correctly. Look at other LUA files for other aircraft and you'll see examples of what the LUA content should be. If you don't support combined controller maps then say so in your advertising media.


Edited by jjohnson241

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3rd Mar Div

RVN '66-'67

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I use a Warthog with DCS and I havent got a problem, granted I dont use Target and have never needed to.

 

Our requirement is to ensure that the controls are mapable within DCS options. That is what we have to do and have done, although we will look at things like Target we make no promises regarding compatibility or tweaking that may be required to use a piece of software that is not made by us or ED

 

Pman

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Without commenting on the tone of some posts, I use Target, I find it good to ensure as much as possible same key functions across many differrent aircraft type.

 

It works 'straight out of the box' with all 9 aircraft that I own.

 

The Hawk's on my list once EFM is sorted and running.

 

I'd probably not go the Hawke route if there are compability issues.

 

Target compatability is probably a low priority at the moment but in the final finished product I doubt if there will be any issues.

 

Kind Regards

Chris

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I use a Warthog with DCS and I havent got a problem, granted I dont use Target and have never needed to.

 

Our requirement is to ensure that the controls are mapable within DCS options. That is what we have to do and have done, although we will look at things like Target we make no promises regarding compatibility or tweaking that may be required to use a piece of software that is not made by us or ED

 

Pman

 

Target combines the joystick and throttle to look logically like one controller to DCS. Again, it does not alter any of the internal controller processes in DCS (or any other Sim). You don't need to make any promises regarding compatibility as there are no compatibility issues.

There are issues regarding VEAO coding of Joystick and Keyboard LUA scripts as I describe above.

This issue boils down to VEAO excluding script entries that were placed in the default Joystick LUA and not replicated in the default Keyboard LUA. VEAO is the ONLY VENDOR that has made that omission. In doing so, you prevent you customers from using a combined controller map. If you don't care about that, then that's your business decision and a decision that I assure you will cost you customers in the future.

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3rd Mar Div

RVN '66-'67

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Target combines the joystick and throttle to look logically like one controller to DCS. Again, it does not alter any of the internal controller processes in DCS (or any other Sim). You don't need to make any promises regarding compatibility as there are no compatibility issues.

There are issues regarding VEAO coding of Joystick and Keyboard LUA scripts as I describe above.

This issue boils down to VEAO excluding script entries that were placed in the default Joystick LUA and not replicated in the default Keyboard LUA. VEAO is the ONLY VENDOR that has made that omission. In doing so, you prevent you customers from using a combined controller map. If you don't care about that, then that's your business decision and a decision that I assure you will cost you customers in the future.

Just to understand what you're saying: whenever possible iCommands in the keyboard lua should also be in the joystick lua and vice versa. Is this correct? If so I agree.

 

Personally, I would like to see more discrete state iCommands (e.g. Nav Lights On) as well as toggles; maximum flexibility for HOTAS programming.

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Just to understand what you're saying: whenever possible iCommands in the keyboard lua should also be in the joystick lua and vice versa. Is this correct? If so I agree.

 

Personally, I would like to see more discrete state iCommands (e.g. Nav Lights On) as well as toggles; maximum flexibility for HOTAS programming.

 

Thanks for the translation.

Yes that's what I'm saying.

Shame there is not a standard published by DCS.

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3rd Mar Div

RVN '66-'67

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Just to understand what you're saying: whenever possible iCommands in the keyboard lua should also be in the joystick lua and vice versa. Is this correct? If so I agree.

 

Personally, I would like to see more discrete state iCommands (e.g. Nav Lights On) as well as toggles; maximum flexibility for HOTAS programming.

I was just about to post something similar.

 

As far as I understand the whole DCS controls mapping system, any module should:

 

a) provide a mapping for each action that can be performed directly in the cockpit by mouse (--> clickable_data.lua)

b) ideally provide some sensitive simplifications (directly mappable rotary positions or the other way around, "next" and "prev" functions, etc. This is a big issue across all modules atm, imo. ED should really adress this somehow - and if it is in form of some "style guide")

c) have each of these mappings accessible by keyboard combos (keyboard.lua)

d) have each of these mappings accessible by DX buttons (joystick.lua)

e) exceptions from c) and d) should be rarely be necessary. Atm I can not really think of any, tbh.

f) it is usually not necessary to make a distinction of the function label (i.e. "Toggle Gear" and "Toggle Gear (joystick)". This only effect this has is, that it appears as two lines in the control mapping dialog although both do exactly the same. If they are named identically, they appear instead just as two columns in the same line.

 

If all control mappings are available for keyboard and DX buttons, then even the TM WH combined should have no issues.

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I was just about to post something similar.

 

As far as I understand the whole DCS controls mapping system, any module should:

 

a) provide a mapping for each action that can be performed directly in the cockpit by mouse (--> clickable_data.lua)

b) ideally provide some sensitive simplifications (directly mappable rotary positions or the other way around, "next" and "prev" functions, etc. This is a big issue across all modules atm, imo. ED should really adress this somehow - and if it is in form of some "style guide")

c) have each of these mappings accessible by keyboard combos (keyboard.lua)

d) have each of these mappings accessible by DX buttons (joystick.lua)

e) exceptions from c) and d) should be rarely be necessary. Atm I can not really think of any, tbh.

f) it is usually not necessary to make a distinction of the function label (i.e. "Toggle Gear" and "Toggle Gear (joystick)". This only effect this has is, that it appears as two lines in the control mapping dialog although both do exactly the same. If they are named identically, they appear instead just as two columns in the same line.

 

If all control mappings are available for keyboard and DX buttons, then even the TM WH combined should have no issues.

 

Thanks for your input.

We're all in violent agreement. :D

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3rd Mar Div

RVN '66-'67

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d) have each of these mappings accessible by DX buttons (joystick.lua)

e) exceptions from c) and d) should be rarely be necessary. Atm I can not really think of any, tbh.

f) it is usually not necessary to make a distinction of the function label (i.e. "Toggle Gear" and "Toggle Gear (joystick)". This only effect this has is, that it appears as two lines in the control mapping dialog although both do exactly the same. If they are named identically, they appear instead just as two columns in the same line.

One exception of note is the Flap Up/Down HOTAS setting on the C-101. This was designed for the Warthog, so the flap switch persistently down enables down, persistently up enables up, and switch to middle (no button pressed) puts the flaps to the middle setting.

 

Otherwise, I agree completely. The more iCommands, the merrier!

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