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DCS: F-14A/A+/B by Heatblur Simulations coming to DCS World!


Cobra847

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Just wondering, is it likely that the AIM-54 will be effectively outlawed in multiplayer?

 

I know some servers already allow only R-27R/AIM-7.

 

Highly likely. There are servers that ban bloody R3Rs >_> so the odds of a missile capable of locking you up and being fired without you knowing about it from 80nm away not being banned are low, very low. By the time they go active and you get your first warning, they're 8nm away and at Mach 5 plunging down from above with a very large warhead. Good luck dodging.

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Highly likely. There are servers that ban bloody R3Rs >_> so the odds of a missile capable of locking you up and being fired without you knowing about it from 80nm away not being banned are low, very low. By the time they go active and you get your first warning, they're 8nm away and at Mach 5 plunging down from above with a very large warhead. Good luck dodging.

 

Perhaps eventually we need more planes or more missiles to make it a more even playing field.

 

R-77M

AIM-120D

etc.

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Perhaps eventually we need more planes or more missiles to make it a more even playing field.

 

R-77M

AIM-120D

etc.

 

The intent is for simulation during the time period- not balance. Why turn it into Ace Combat? R-77 was a MiG-29 only missile until when? AIM-120D is just coming online 11 years after the AIM-54 retirement. Spoofing an AIM-54 at range isn't difficult as long as you understand where the missile is and break AWG-9 lock before the AIM-54 goes active. Realism states that the Russia answered the West's technology and BVR advantage with numbers and low-level tactics that zoomed to the F-15/F-16 directly from beneath and firing. The SU-27 can play BVR with F-15s but the MiG-29 is more limited and should eat shots before getting to take one with any chance of a hit. This is what needs to be simulated-not everyone with a fighting chance.

 

The SU-27 and MiG-29 post 2000 are not simulated and no hardware should be. This should be a 1990s game not a "best version of each jet no matter the time period or numbers built"

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Highly likely. There are servers that ban bloody R3Rs >_> so the odds of a missile capable of locking you up and being fired without you knowing about it from 80nm away not being banned are low, very low. By the time they go active and you get your first warning, they're 8nm away and at Mach 5 plunging down from above with a very large warhead. Good luck dodging.

 

I think the effectiveness of the Aim-54 is overestimated, as it has no Recorded USN kills only two launches in combat in which both cases the missile failed it also was not completely accurate in tests and as far as the IRIAF goes hard data is super spotty confirming kills or even hits for that matter.

 

If USN dropped it for the Aim-120 and you can dodge Aim-120s in DCS right now if you know what your doing, I doubt the Aim-54 is going to be that big of a threat.


Edited by Wizard_03

DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer:

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The intent is for simulation during the time period- not balance. Why turn it into Ace Combat? R-77 was a MiG-29 only missile until when? AIM-120D is just coming online 11 years after the AIM-54 retirement. Spoofing an AIM-54 at range isn't difficult as long as you understand where the missile is and break AWG-9 lock before the AIM-54 goes active. Realism states that the Russia answered the West's technology and BVR advantage with numbers and low-level tactics that zoomed to the F-15/F-16 directly from beneath and firing. The SU-27 can play BVR with F-15s but the MiG-29 is more limited and should eat shots before getting to take one with any chance of a hit. This is what needs to be simulated-not everyone with a fighting chance.

 

The SU-27 and MiG-29 post 2000 are not simulated and no hardware should be. This should be a 1990s game not a "best version of each jet no matter the time period or numbers built"

 

I was unaware of any specific time cut off/limit, but an alternative could be the MiG-25/31.

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WHAT TURKEYDRIVER SAID!!

 

 

no "gameplay"

 

no "fairness"

 

no "balance"

 

 

those are weak weasel-words

 

there are plenty of "games" out there on the internet, go "play" those - don't come here and ruin our SIMULATION

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WHAT TURKEYDRIVER SAID!!

 

 

no "gameplay"

 

no "fairness"

 

no "balance"

 

 

those are weak weasel-words

 

there are plenty of "games" out there on the internet, go "play" those - don't come here and ruin our SIMULATION

 

I don't think anyone suggested that.

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I think the effectiveness of the Aim-54 is overestimated, as it has no Recorded USN kills only two launches in combat in which both cases the missile failed it also was not completely accurate in tests and as far as the IRIAF goes hard data is super spotty confirming kills or even hits for that matter.

 

If USN dropped it for the Aim-120 and you can dodge Aim-120s in DCS right now if you know what your doing, I doubt the Aim-54 is going to be that big of a threat.

 

The weapon performed well in testing, and the failure of the weapon when deployed was because they forgot to remove the arming pins, not because the missile wasn't good. Even if we take Iranian results with a huge grain of salt, those combat reports, combined with the testing data, say it's one hell of a missile. If you know it's coming, you can take steps to deal with it, but when you've been launched on from 60nm, the odds of you know it's coming aren't all that great, and by the time the seeker goes active, it's pretty much too late.

 

Also to the "NOT MUH REALISM" crowd, relax, no one was suggesting that in this thread, he was merely saying we needed either more new modules with better weapons, or aircraft already capable of carrying better missiles should get them.

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I just don't think its some super weapon that everyone that rocks Russian birds need dread on the servers. I don't see how its going to be much worse the what we have to deal with now.

 

Granted the range is impressive and the speed and energy are probably higher then the Aim-120 but I doubt the CM rejection or lead pursuit computations are superior, otherwise it would still be around.

DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer:

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A mid 90s F-14B would be carrying the AIM-54C (ECCM), which is designed specifically to counter electronic countermeasures. It's not around anymore because nothing else in the US arsenal fires it, and because the threat of soviet bombers attacking carrier groups with long range cruise missiles vanished.

 

A server that keeps the Phoenix around will go like this: F-14 takes off and goes active on Radar. Everyone sees the F-14 and dives for the deck like they're MiG-21s at an Eagle convention, and doesn't go above terrain until the F-14 goes home. Anyone dumb enough to stay high, fly's along totally oblivious to the fact they've been locked and fired on, until their RWR screams at them that the Phoenix just went active at 8nm. 7.5 seconds later, he's in a million pieces scattered across the sky. Because at Mach 5, it takes 7.5 seconds to go 8 miles. Just how much separation do you think you're going to make in 7.5 seconds?

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I just don't think its some super weapon that everyone that rocks Russian birds need dread on the servers. I don't see how its going to be much worse the what we have to deal with now.

 

Granted the range is impressive and the speed and energy are probably higher then the Aim-120 but I doubt the CM rejection or lead pursuit computations are superior, otherwise it would still be around.

 

I'm a serious Tomcat fan (actually short for fanatic in my case), but I agree with you that it won't be harder to deal with than the AMRAAM.

 

It does have more range, which will catch people off guard, and it has a BIG warhead - some misses with other missiles could become a hit (if that is currently modeled in DCS?).

 

It probably is less maneuverable the the AIM-120 and has less sophisticated programming, but it has more energy and the rocket will continue to burn far past when the regular AMRAAM is out of juice. The combined eefect may be more effective than what many skeptics are expecting, but it won't be a super-weapon that destroys eagles and Flankers in droves (one can dream...).

 

I do think that some will wake up to another big advantage though - it's hard to enter the fight on good terms when your opponent is shooting at you 20-50 nm before you can return fire. Most Tomcat opponents will start on the defensive and will have less energy compared as they approach the merge (compared to an engagement against another opponent). I think that part might surprise a lot of people.

 

-Nick

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I'm a serious Tomcat fan (actually short for fanatic in my case), but I agree with you that it won't be harder to deal with than the AMRAAM.

 

It does have more range, which will catch people off guard, and it has a BIG warhead - some misses with other missiles could become a hit (if that is currently modeled in DCS?).

 

It probably is less maneuverable the the AIM-120 and has less sophisticated programming, but it has more energy and the rocket will continue to burn far past when the regular AMRAAM is out of juice. The combined eefect may be more effective than what many skeptics are expecting, but it won't be a super-weapon that destroys eagles and Flankers in droves (one can dream...).

 

I do think that some will wake up to another big advantage though - it's hard to enter the fight on good terms when your opponent is shooting at you 20-50 nm before you can return fire. Most Tomcat opponents will start on the defensive and will have less energy compared as they approach the merge (compared to an engagement against another opponent). I think that part might surprise a lot of people.

 

-Nick

 

Thank you I love the tomcat too, I'm a hornet man at heart but they are definitely friends on the deck. But yeah you know its a missile. Its dangerous lol but its not the almighty missile everyone made it out to be in 70s Things are different now, ECM and electronic warfare are a big deal when it comes to missile defense in RL half of which aren't even in the game really.

 

Also people love talking about how fast and how much energy it has, when in reality it is impossible to 'dodge' any modern missile (assuming you being shot at at RTR or closer obviously) without CMs or practicing missile avoidance tactics. Because any missile is going to be more agile then any fighter. That's physics it does not need to go Mach 5 Mach 3.5 will do the same job. That's where CMs come in.

 

Now I agree with you that the big advantage that Aim-54 is bringing to the table is first look, first shot. That being said its not going to be worse then the Aim-120 we'll just have a different set of problems when it comes up.


Edited by Wizard_03

DCS F/A-18C :sorcerer:

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Thank you I love the tomcat too, I'm a hornet man at heart but they are definitely friends on the deck. But yeah you know its a missile. Its dangerous lol but its not the almighty missile everyone made it out to be in 70s Things are different now, ECM and electronic warfare are a big deal when it comes to missile defense in RL half of which aren't even in the game really.

 

Also people love talking about how fast and how much energy it has, when in reality it is impossible to 'dodge' any modern missile (assuming you being shot at at RTR or closer obviously) without CMs or practicing missile avoidance tactics. Because any missile is going to be more agile then any fighter. That's physics it does not need to go Mach 5 Mach 3.5 will do the same job. That's where CMs come in.

 

Now I agree with you that the big advantage that Aim-54 is bringing to the table is first look, first shot. That being said its not going to be worse then the Aim-120 we'll just have a different set of problems when it comes up.

 

It will be fascinating to see how the Tomcat fits into the DCS world with Eagles, Hornets (hopefully in <12 months!), Flankers, Fulcrums, and Mirages. Many are fixating on the Phoenix and it makes sense since it's sort of a wild card at this point, but the Tomcat is a total weapons system.

 

The part that intrigues me most is the fact that the F-14A/B that LNS is developing will have Avionics and RADAR that are a full generation older than the Avionics in any other "modern" fighter in DCS, excluding the MiG-21. However, the RADAR's range will probably be longer than any other module in DCS and it will carry could might be the most powerful (or 2nd most powerful) weapon for A-A in DCS. Add to that the TCS system and the fact that it is a two-crew aircraft with a clever AI system (for when the 2nd player is not an option). I think that second player/AI that is dedicated to RADAR operation and spotting enemies will be a big help.

 

So...how will these different pros and cons fit together? Will the Tomcat prove to be a brutal opponent - most feared amongst all the other aircraft in DCS? Or an anachronism who's lack of automation, DFCS, high player workload, and old avionics limits it's ability to win when the fight gets serious?

 

Well, I'm guessing both. :) (Did I mention that my official flower is the hedge;)).

 

I think that the F-14B (and F-14A for those who really learn it) will be a truly effective fighter in DCS and will cause serious trepidations - for both the player and the opponent. It will be a really tough opponent, but the challenge of operating it will mean that there will be lots of stories of Eagles, Flankers, and Hornets with quick/easy kills. But others who have never beaten a Tomcat in a fair fight.

 

Either way, there will be tons of stories and really good times in the process. Combat abilities aside, I think it will have the most personality and will be extremely rewarding to fly - if you invest the effort learning her secrets. ;)

 

-Nick

 

PS - I am also a big Hornet fan - 2nd in my book only to the Tomcat. I also love most of Naval Aviation and we are so fortunate that LNS and ED are bringing these awesome birds to DCS. Dream come true...

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That being said its not going to be worse then the Aim-120 we'll just have a different set of problems when it comes up.

 

The range on the AIM-120 isn't particularly good, I don't know if the current AIM-54 in game is modelled accurately but it seems to perform a lot better, assuming you (F-15) are the only target, I can fire off missiles every few seconds and you'll have to dodge 6 AIM-54's before you'll even get in range and then you have the AIM-7 to deal with, or I can turn back to base and let you play with uncle SAM.

 

It will be fascinating to see how the Tomcat fits into the DCS world with Eagles, Hornets (hopefully in <12 months!), Flankers, Fulcrums, and Mirages. Many are fixating on the Phoenix and it makes sense since it's sort of a wild card at this point, but the Tomcat is a total weapons system.

 

The part that intrigues me most is the fact that the F-14A/B that LNS is developing will have Avionics and RADAR that are a full generation older than the Avionics in any other "modern" fighter in DCS, excluding the MiG-21. However, the RADAR's range will probably be longer than any other module in DCS and it will carry could might be the most powerful (or 2nd most powerful) weapon for A-A in DCS. Add to that the TCS system and the fact that it is a two-crew aircraft with a clever AI system (for when the 2nd player is not an option). I think that second player/AI that is dedicated to RADAR operation and spotting enemies will be a big help.

 

So...how will these different pros and cons fit together? Will the Tomcat prove to be a brutal opponent - most feared amongst all the other aircraft in DCS? Or an anachronism who's lack of automation, DFCS, high player workload, and old avionics limits it's ability to win when the fight gets serious?

 

Well, I'm guessing both. :) (Did I mention that my official flower is the hedge;)).

 

I think that the F-14B (and F-14A for those who really learn it) will be a truly effective fighter in DCS and will cause serious trepidations - for both the player and the opponent. It will be a really tough opponent, but the challenge of operating it will mean that there will be lots of stories of Eagles, Flankers, and Hornets with quick/easy kills. But others who have never beaten a Tomcat in a fair fight.

 

Either way, there will be tons of stories and really good times in the process. Combat abilities aside, I think it will have the most personality and will be extremely rewarding to fly - if you invest the effort learning her secrets. ;)

 

-Nick

 

PS - I am also a big Hornet fan - 2nd in my book only to the Tomcat. I also love most of Naval Aviation and we are so fortunate that LNS and ED are bringing these awesome birds to DCS. Dream come true...

 

I think people have also overlooked that players can simple take off, fire off at 6 targets, wait, then land, rearm and do it again, without even getting in an enemies range.


Edited by otester
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I think people have also overlooked that players can simple take off, fire off at 6 targets, wait, then land, rearm and do it again, without even getting in an enemies range.

 

I think this isn't going to be that bad of an issue.

 

 

The thing I'm seeing happening, is that every other jet is lawn mowing through the mountains, defeating the entire purpose of the long range radar and rendering the F14 useless.

I hope this won't be the issue and people actually go up to the altitudes the jets are designed to fly °-°

 

Right now, that's something I really miss when flying my flanker. Everybody is down there in the mountains, and you're going to be the only lone jet flying up high at 30k+ feet. Up there you can't find anybody, or you'll have to dive back down again..

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I think this isn't going to be that bad of an issue.

 

 

The thing I'm seeing happening, is that every other jet is lawn mowing through the mountains, defeating the entire purpose of the long range radar and rendering the F14 useless.

I hope this won't be the issue and people actually go up to the altitudes the jets are designed to fly °-°

 

Right now, that's something I really miss when flying my flanker. Everybody is down there in the mountains, and you're going to be the only lone jet flying up high at 30k+ feet. Up there you can't find anybody, or you'll have to dive back down again..

 

As a MiG-21 pilot, that would be the greatest equalizer one could ask for :joystick:

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It seems like to discuss about giving the capability of 120 to f-14 again, you guys have type lots of words already, and that boring thread had been closed, why restarted?

 

We're talking about the Phoenix, I don't know what the hell thread you're reading, but i suggest you either reread and pay attention this time, or post in the one you've obviously mistaken this one for.:doh:

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We're talking about the Phoenix, I don't know what the hell thread you're reading, but i suggest you either reread and pay attention this time, or post in the one you've obviously mistaken this one for.:doh:

That's why I was confused.

 

Another thing... How do we know how accurately the missile works? It never made any kills

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How do people know how accurately the Phoenix works? Like ED did for the AIM-120 or the R-27? Public available performance data... Or does anyone have classified data he wants to leak? :musicwhistling:

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How do people know how accurately the Phoenix works? Like ED did for the AIM-120 or the R-27? Public available performance data... Or does anyone have classified data he wants to leak? :musicwhistling:

 

Secretly, the Aim-54 is a cruise missile with 5000km range, but nobody ever told you and they all made you believe the Phoenix missile is what it looks like. The missiles you see in the pictures are actually fake and just made to fool you :o

I think the Iranians and Iraqis may beg to differ.

Why so?

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