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How is f-14 maneuverability?


NORTHMAN
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The question was asked by dartuil in the thread about the new announcement and I think he raises a legitimate question. If we think maneuver, we think dogfight, am I right?

 

Anyway! Against f-15 (and MiG-21, I saw people taking them out in guns only fight!), MiG-29, Su-27 and Mirage-2000(:worthy: lol). the three last are considered very maneuverable!

 

Is there any reference about it somewhere?

 

Ho, heyhey, uhm and Leatherneck... good job!:thumbup:

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The wings. They swing, you see.

 

Other than that and something about compressor stalls, I'm not sure! T:W ratio doent seem astronomical.

 

Seems like it'd probably do a bit worse than an F-15, but better than a MiG-25 or 31. Whether thats a compliment or not is yet to be determined :P

 

Wouldnt want to TnB with a Mirage though. Flanker and Fulcrum too I'd consider out of the question. Just throw a Phoenix at em now and then to remind them to stay away from your front-lawn, and you've done your job without getting kills :P

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Not an expert on the matter, but the Tomcat isn't a purebred fighter like the F-15. Its main task was to intercept bombers with the help of its Phoenix missiles. It has long legs and it likes to go fast, but i think in a gunzo dogfight, you'll have a really hard time competing with Mig-29 and Su-27.

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Just throw a Phoenix at em now and then to remind them to stay away from your front-lawn, and you've done your job without getting kills :P

 

Getting shot down in a fighter by a phoenix missile is probably the equivalent of getting your lollipop stolen by a baby. It's fast, yes, but it is incredibly heavy and it owes its speed to its small control surfaces. Pull some hard orthogonal maneuvers and it can't keep up.

Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two.

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I really hope (almost certain it is) its better than a MiG-25, its supposed to be limited to 4 or 5 G if I remember correctly! :smilewink:

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Not an expert on the matter, but the Tomcat isn't a purebred fighter like the F-15. Its main task was to intercept bombers with the help of its Phoenix missiles. It has long legs and it likes to go fast, but i think in a gunzo dogfight, you'll have a really hard time competing with Mig-29 and Su-27.

 

It's annoying I had a link to an article written by a Royal Navy pilot who flew the f-14 during military exchange and he had a very favourable view of the F-14 in combat and goes on to write that he would have chosen the tomcat over the sea harrier in ACM.

 

Sadly this link is no longer working :(

 

I agree with you it never was as agile as the likes of the flanker or mig 29 etc but a lot better than people assume. :)

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I really hope (almost certain it is) its better than a MiG-25, its supposed to be limited to 4 or 5 G if I remember correctly! :smilewink:

In peace time it was limited to 6.5g, but has been known to pull 12g in at least one case, and after inspection the aircraft was returned to full fight duty, tough old Turkey :joystick::pilotfly:

 

Edit: to compare, the EE Lightning had one aircraft do a manoeuvre that stressed the airframe to 13g and it had to be retired as it was slightly bent afterwards :)


Edited by Alicatt

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Well I dunno about you but my plan... lock em up with Phoenixes... fire... RTB and grab some chow... profit.

 

If they get close enough for me to "keep up foreign relations", then I must be doing something wrong.

 

 

Good question OP... but I doubt it is as maneuverable as some of its peers, but then it was not designed to fight that way.

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Getting shot down in a fighter by a phoenix missile is probably the equivalent of getting your lollipop stolen by a baby. It's fast, yes, but it is incredibly heavy and it owes its speed to its small control surfaces. Pull some hard orthogonal maneuvers and it can't keep up.

 

If its similar to the AA-9 performance wise ingame, then I can definitely see it shooting down its fair share of fighters.

 

Are they similar missiles in terms of kinematics?


Edited by Nerdwing
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I don't have any hard numbers, but anectotal evidence is mixed. The Israelis were apperantly not very impressed when evaluating the Tomcat, indicating it had troubles even against the A-4 (which I find hard to belief) and buying the F-15 instead. The Iranians on the other hand were quite pleased with low speed maneuverability and choosed the F-14 over the F-15, though the Tomcat's superior weapons package capable of countering intruisons by Soviet recon MiG-25 was the deciding factor. Iranian pilots considered the F-14 superior to Iraqi MiG-21 and MiG-23 in close combat due to exceptional nose pointing ability and the reliable AIM-9P Sidewinder missile.

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From what I read it is very much up to the guy in the front seat. A bad stick will find her a turkey; big, sluggish and underpowered. A hot stick will find she can go to some surprising places if asked nicely and expertly.

 

We also get the B model so that should be more comfortable without the compressor stalls and more power. It supercruised with ease iirc.

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AIM-54 was designed to destroy bombers and/or anti-ship missiles. Getting a fighter at vast BVR ranges would be possible though.

 

The AIM-54A was replaced by the AIM-54C in 1986 (i think( and it used digital technology rather than the analog of the AIM-54A)

 

The Phoenix had some reliability issues though with it's engine, phoeni-bombs I believe they were called. I remember reading that that the missile had surprising maneuverability when working right. To achieve it's longest range it would use mid range updates from the Tomcat and gain altitude developing gravitational potential energy on it's climb . When it entered it's internal active homing radar phase, it would then dive towards the target converting that energy into kinetic energy gaining speeds up to Mach 5.

 

I'm trying to remember where I read it, it may of been Tomcat: bye bye baby or another Tomcat resource. Spectators watched an AIM-54 destroy a drone and the second AIM-54 arriving soon after managed to home onto the largest piece of wreckage, now just dropping from the sky, maneuvered rather sharply it appears in it's terminal phase and destroyed that as well. I would feel much better if I could find the exact quote about that.

 

The F-14 itself was a maneuverable enough bird it seems, not the most maneuverable jet on the world, but surprisingly agile for it's size and punch.

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Just look at the shape of the aircraft. I would wager that it's extremely manouverable for a fighter of its size, obviously with wings extended for a turn fight. I would guess it's limited mostly by its huge mass, and it's engines, but this plane was designed to be an air superiority fighter, not just as a pure interceptor. It probably won't fare well against a Su27 or Mig29 in a turn fight, but against the threats of its time period it was hands down the fighter to beat.

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I'm trying to remember where I read it, it may of been Tomcat: bye bye baby or another Tomcat resource. Spectators watched an AIM-54 destroy a drone and the second AIM-54 arriving soon after managed to home onto the largest piece of wreckage, now just dropping from the sky, maneuvered rather sharply it appears in it's terminal phase and destroyed that as well. I would feel much better if I could find the exact quote about that.

Our squadron did a night AIM-54 Phoenix shoot where we shot two Phoenixes at range against a drone. The shots were staggered by about 2 miles, one right after the other. Our lead safes, while on NVG's, followed both missiles toward the target. They reported back that the first Phoenix was "Boola Boola", meaning a direct hit and completely destroying the drone. They said what happened next was pretty amazing. The second Phoenix quickly made an adjustment off what was left of the drone and hit the largest remaining part. Remember, this 1,000lb missile is traveling at Mach 3.0 and only a couple of miles behind the first missile, so there was very little time for the missile to react. I guess the Ordies had programmed it for "pulverization mode".
from

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/an-elite-f-14-airman-explains-why-the-tomcat-was-so-imp-1610043625

 

I remember reading it in Tomcat: Bye Bye Baby as well

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I take a look at Discovery wings. And during the top-gun explanation you can see the tomcat pursuing an f-5 and its maneuvering pretty hard behind it!Really love this old documentary...

 

F-5 is so small, and F-14 so large and bulky! very impressive but no more clue about other planes. :doh::thumbup:

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As i replied at the original question, the maneuverability will depend largely on the current weapon's load. The Tomcat's configurations vary even more then the typical air superiority aircraft's of the day (F-15; Su-27). Each AIM-54 has almost twice the weight of a Sparrow-AMRAAM. So the more of them you take with you, the less of a dogfighter you get. With 4 Phoenix on board, i found the plane suffer greatly in overall agility, especially the vertical performance.

 

In 2-3-2 (Ph-Sp-Sw) it's more balanced. Especially if you start the engagement at BVR and fire away 1 or 2 missiles before the merge. In pure air superiority load (4-4; Sp-Sw) it's as good as anything you can fly i guess. It has it's own specifics in the flight envelope (superior turning at lower to mid subsonic, inferior at transonic), but flown well, you are good against most AC.

 

Beware the engines though. No sudden throttle movements at high alpha/low airspeed, no excessive side sleep in the same regime...... and wings on manual when dogfighting above 25000 ft.....

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FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map......ah yes, forgot the Super Carrier! Shows you how often i fly these days....

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Thanks for seeing my question.

It was invisible in thread lol.

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As i replied at the original question,

<Snip>

Beware the engines though. No sudden throttle movements at high alpha/low airspeed, no excessive side sleep in the same regime...... and wings on manual when dogfighting above 25000 ft.....

 

Is that for the TF-30 engines or F-110 or both?

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Is that for the TF-30 engines or F-110 or both?

 

For the TF30 only. The GE don't suffer as much and are less restrictive in throttle management. They do have a unique weakness though. Despite their higher compressor stall resistance, they require a higher airspeed to restart mid air.

 

Wings on manual above 25k ft? Nice

 

But only if manual sweep is modeled.

 

The basic idea is that the flight computer manages the wing sweep according to both mach number and indicated air speed. However, above 20-25000 ft it's exclusively mach number based.

 

As you gain angels, the mach number - airspeed gap shortens, and you wind up flying i.e. at 300-350 KIAS and at mach 0.85-0.95. This turns your plane into a delta wing, while still flying relatively low air speeds. With your spoilers locked because of wing sweep, and the rapid AoA build up typical of delta wings, maintaining control of the plane during hard maneuvers can be troublesome to say the least. Add to this the fact that the TF30's "want" to choke above angels 35 on their own, and you must do what ever it takes to minimize unwanted behavior. So wings on manual is a good start. You won't be doing much drag racing in a dog fight anyway, thus capping at mach 0.9-1.0 should not be a problem.

Current modules:

FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map......ah yes, forgot the Super Carrier! Shows you how often i fly these days....

Modules in waiting: MiG-23, A-6, F-4U, F-8, Falklands Map

Wish list: South East Asia map, F-4J/N, F-15A/C, Su-27, Sea Harrier FRS.1, Mirage III, MiG-17.

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for what it's worth:

Pete Bonanni (author of "The Art of the Kill") wrote this in his Book:

 

"Some other common head-on BFM mistakes are insufficient G, poor airspeed control, bad lift vector control, failure to lead turn, and trying to BFM in an F-14. (Just kidding on that last one — well, not really.)"

 

keep in mind that he's a Viper driver though (;

This is pretty much in line what others here have stated, just thought it was funny (;


Edited by kobeshow

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But only if manual sweep is modeled.

 

Manual control for swip wings is the number one features in my opinion and its the number one priority...

 

if not :huh: and:( and :cry: and :mad:! Leatherneck made a very high quality MiG-21. no reason for not doing it with this future awesome module!

 

Somebody else have information about manouver the cats, G load or Q factor, max AoA! I know the cobra maneuver can be done!:music_whistling:

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But only if manual sweep is modeled.

 

Manual control for swip wings is the number one features in my opinion and its the number one priority...

 

if not :huh: and:( and :cry: and :mad:! Leatherneck made a very high quality MiG-21. no reason for not doing it with this future awesome module!

 

Somebody else have information about manouver the cats, G load or Q factor, max AoA! I know the cobra maneuver can be done!:music_whistling:

 

Max sustained at combat weight and low altitude is not all that impressive (compared to a Viper, Flanker or say an Aegle) and is around 7.5-8 G, depending on ordinance. But where those G's are matters. With the wings out, you can pull and sustain 5-6 G at air speeds with which some modern AC would struggle just staying afloat.

 

EDIT: another advantage is your relatively large fuel reserve and combat weight, which allows for more liberal burner use and/or longer endurance

 

for what it's worth:

Pete Bonanni (author of "The Art of the Kill") wrote this in his Book:

 

"Some other common head-on BFM mistakes are insufficient G, poor airspeed control, bad lift vector control, failure to lead turn, and trying to BFM in an F-14. (Just kidding on that last one — well, not really.)"

 

keep in mind that he's a Viper driver though (;

This is pretty much in line what others here have stated, just thought it was funny (;

It is (funny) actually :lol:

Seriously... i can't imagine a Viper jock flying a Turkey though...... They are like alpha and omega...... on the opposite sides of the spectrum.

Current modules:

FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map......ah yes, forgot the Super Carrier! Shows you how often i fly these days....

Modules in waiting: MiG-23, A-6, F-4U, F-8, Falklands Map

Wish list: South East Asia map, F-4J/N, F-15A/C, Su-27, Sea Harrier FRS.1, Mirage III, MiG-17.

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