How is f-14 maneuverability?

[Hammer1-1]

But what about all these other times?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Would you show me a shot of a F-14 with a F-15 pipper over it? You don't need to find 7 like I did, just 2 would be great. It seems easy to find video of F-14s gunning F-15s, but not the other way around.... :D

 

-Nick

Its the same thing you would see with the F/A-18E gunning F-22s, T-50s gunning down F-22s, and so forth. A couple of instances doesnt make the F-14 an eagle killer any more than an F-18 makes it a raptor killer. And I cant find many HUD pictures of F-22s defeating F-18s, doesnt mean they're not out there either.

[lunaticfringe]

I like the part where, after much gnashing of teeth, "how many others exist- not many at all" becomes "well all of that doesn't mean anything!".

 

Face it- you fanboy'd yourself into a position you can't actually defend without invoking other types by way of comparison, rather than evidence. And you even skipped over recollections of an F-15 pilot a few posts above yours, which outlined much of what has been previously discussed: it's altitude, type, and pilot that makes the difference- with the last being the greatest deciding factor.

[BlackLion213]

Its the same thing you would see with the F/A-18E gunning F-22s, T-50s gunning down F-22s, and so forth. A couple of instances doesnt make the F-14 an eagle killer any more than an F-18 makes it a raptor killer.

 

Yes, because the machine is only a small part of the equation and Raptors can and will lose to Hornets. Likewise, Hornets will lose to F-5E aggressors, front-line squadrons will lose to ANG squadrons, and so on. Similarly, despite how much better the F-14B/D was at ACM compared to the F-14A, the F110 powered F-14s routinely lost DACT/ACM matches to F-14As - because the win boils down to the pilot, strategy, and errors.

 

A couple of instances doesnt make the F-14 an eagle killer any more than an F-18 makes it a raptor killer.

 

It does - the F-14 was an Eagle killer. And the Eagle was a Tomcat killer. It was a 2-way street and both aircraft routinely lost ACM matches to each other throughout their careers.

 

I don't who won more often and maybe the Eagles did. "Bio" Baranek claims his encounters were 50:50 - he is a pretty straight shooter and I'm not concerned with those small details.

 

My point is that the assertion that "Hoser" was the only pilot to "gun" an Eagle is clearly incorrect and it was in fact a routine event for ~30 years.

 

-Nick

[turkeydriver]

So the latest issue of Combat Aircraft has an article on the F-35 demo the Paris Air Show. It was flown by a former F-15C pilot. He states that when the jet had the initial software, limited to 3G, it was an equal to the F-15C. That is the same time the article came out about a tanked up F-16 outflying it.

Now with 3i software, the jet is 7g limited( 3f will bring 9g capability), and he has had no problem soundly beating F-16s every time. The F-16 drivers ask whats new with the jet, he responds nothing has really changed but they know how to fly it now.

-they know how to use it best to beat their opponents in ACM.

 

This applies to this conversation because PingPongChamp thinks F-14 are grapes in ACM. I'd say that if you fly an F-14A like an F-15C you're going to lose. Just like you cant fly an F-15 like an F-14. There is bad gouge out there in rumorville. Many times F-14s and F-15s fought when VF-101 would send new kids against Langley F-15s, obviously, these kids were at a disadvantage. Many times F-15s bounced bomb-configured F-14s, obviously the jets were at a disadvantage.

The science behind it all dictates the F-14 is a superior ACM platform below 15k and below Mach .7 or above Mach 1(wierdo 60s engineers thought supersonic dogfights were legit). The F-15 is superior from Mach.8-Mach 1, as it was designed to be, and superior at higher altitudes due to lighter weight and mostly superior T-W ratio. If you have both jets configured for combat, the F-14 is at an advantage at fighting weight. F-15s must drop their wing tanks to turn and burn.

 

F-14 veterans have a specific maneuver they apply to Eagle drivers when they meet. The Eagle drivers ASSUME too much the energy state by the wings, so they close initially with max thrust, go to idle and ensure the wings are manually swept as they pass. The F-15 driver assumes that the F-14 has energy and speed and knows their Eagle will win an energy fight so they pull vertical as the see the F-14 start to. Meanwhile the pitch rate while swept in an F-14 is untouchable, as is the bleed rate, so the F-14 pulls hard and watches the F-15 climb away and easily calls "pipper on". First kill in about 20 seconds, now he's in the Eagle drivers head and uses actual ACM skill for the remaining flights.

 

I don't want to detract from the F-15 guys, they the only dedicated air to air platform out there that expects to close to ACM with the enemy and because of this they are the best at what they do. I envy the F-15s control system. However, a veteran F-14 driver especially in a DFCS equipped A, B, or D, shouldn't have a problem staying with an F-15 in a dogfight. VF-41 had no problem killing German MiG-29s with their DFCS F-14As.

[GGTharos]

So the latest issue of Combat Aircraft has an article on the F-35 demo the Paris Air Show. It was flown by a former F-15C pilot. He states that when the jet had the initial software, limited to 3G, it was an equal to the F-15C.

 

Yeah, that doesn't sound fishy at all :)

 

F-15s must drop their wing tanks to turn and burn.

 

They don't ... and they don't.

 

F-14 veterans have a specific maneuver they apply to Eagle drivers when they meet.

 

F-15 veterans have a specific maneuver they apply to all drivers too. It's called radar sampling, the data's right on the HUD. Don't become a one-trick pony, it won't work well.

 

Meanwhile the pitch rate while swept in an F-14 is untouchable

 

That's a pretty huge assumption. Based on what?

 

First kill in about 20 seconds, now he's in the Eagle drivers head and uses actual ACM skill for the remaining flights.

 

Or he's sitting around slow, out of gun range or with a slow, wobbly nose and all he can do now is wait for the eagle to come around and gun him. Dogfights are like chess, but they're also not scripted. Don't be dreaming of kills in 20 seconds in 1v1's, you're rarely going to get any. 20 second kills are in 2v1 or better territory, not 1v1.

 

However, a veteran F-14 driver especially in a DFCS equipped A, B, or D, shouldn't have a problem staying with an F-15 in a dogfight. VF-41 had no problem killing German MiG-29s with their DFCS F-14As.

 

Neither did the hornets or the eagles. And they shot down MiG-29's for real.

[The Black Swan]

 

 

 

Neither did the hornets or the eagles. And they shot down MiG-29's for real.

 

I've never heard of hornets downing 29s. And the only F-15 kills I've heard of on 29s were BVR.

 

Did an eagle get in a dogfight with a 29 at some point?

[GGTharos]

You are correct, that's just my grammar. Hornets took down 21's (maybe other aircraft too, but I'm not aware of that)

 

Yes, there were at least two dogfights between eagles and MiGs. Or perhaps more accurately, one WVR encounter and one good old turning dogfight.

 

I've never heard of hornets downing 29s. And the only F-15 kills I've heard of on 29s were BVR.

 

Did an eagle get in a dogfight with a 29 at some point?

[Vatikus]

Would you show me a shot of a F-14 with a F-15 pipper over it? You don't need to find 7 like I did, just 2 would be great. It seems easy to find video of F-14s gunning F-15s, but not the other way around.... :D

you can find guncam stills from mig21 which have f16, f15, f14, f18, mirage, mig29, etc. with piper on them. Does that mean mig21 is best? ;)

[probad]

this is probably one of the most degenerate threads outside of the wishlist right now

 

frankly, more power to anyone who doesn't want to fly the tomcat, because i sure don't want to have to wait in line for a slot.

[BlackLion213]

you can find guncam stills from mig21 which have f16, f15, f14, f18, mirage, mig29, etc. with piper on them. Does that mean mig21 is best? ;)

 

Did I say that the F-14 was better? Don't extrapolate too much. ;)

 

-Nick

 

PS - your post does reinforce my position though so thank you for that. :)

[captain_dalan]

I have a good friend that once said:

You lot still arguing?

 

Proper graphs and data were reviewed within the first 25 pages and a conclusion was reached.

Yeah........

 

.... Which they promptly ID's (as the Toms were chasing us in our highly visible smoking Phantoms bugging out at the speed of heat).....

 

How did the Phantoms smoke when compared to the TF30 powered Turkeys?

 

I like the part where, after much gnashing of teeth, "how many others exist- not many at all" becomes "well all of that doesn't mean anything!".

 

Face it- you fanboy'd yourself into a position you can't actually defend without invoking other types by way of comparison, rather than evidence. And you even skipped over recollections of an F-15 pilot a few posts above yours, which outlined much of what has been previously discussed: it's altitude, type, and pilot that makes the difference- with the last being the greatest deciding factor.

 

Heh, i doubt these people even know how to interpret the data when shown to them. A couple of months ago, on another thread, one of these guys was jamming how this plane (won't said which, me no like flame wars) had the perfect wing (what ever that means). So i attached 3 charts to him. lift, drag and lift-to-drag quotients (courtesy of NASA) as asked which one he though was the best.... he never called back..... :cry:

Edited July 8, 2017 by captain_dalan

[punk]

:Flush:

[Hammer1-1]

Yes, because the machine is only a small part of the equation and Raptors can and will lose to Hornets. Likewise, Hornets will lose to F-5E aggressors, front-line squadrons will lose to ANG squadrons, and so on. Similarly, despite how much better the F-14B/D was at ACM compared to the F-14A, the F110 powered F-14s routinely lost DACT/ACM matches to F-14As - because the win boils down to the pilot, strategy, and errors.

 

 

 

It does - the F-14 was an Eagle killer. And the Eagle was a Tomcat killer. It was a 2-way street and both aircraft routinely lost ACM matches to each other throughout their careers.

 

I don't who won more often and maybe the Eagles did. "Bio" Baranek claims his encounters were 50:50 - he is a pretty straight shooter and I'm not concerned with those small details.

 

My point is that the assertion that "Hoser" was the only pilot to "gun" an Eagle is clearly incorrect and it was in fact a routine event for ~30 years.

 

-Nick

Never stated he was the only pilot, I just stated that those F14 wins were few and far between, then again did these F15 pilots go through something similar to Top Gun? And speaking of Top Gun, can it handle an F-5?

Edited July 8, 2017 by Hammer1-1

[turkeydriver]

Yeah, that doesn't sound fishy at all :)

 

 

 

They don't ... and they don't.

 

 

 

F-15 veterans have a specific maneuver they apply to all drivers too. It's called radar sampling, the data's right on the HUD. Don't become a one-trick pony, it won't work well.

 

 

 

That's a pretty huge assumption. Based on what?

 

 

 

Or he's sitting around slow, out of gun range or with a slow, wobbly nose and all he can do now is wait for the eagle to come around and gun him. Dogfights are like chess, but they're also not scripted. Don't be dreaming of kills in 20 seconds in 1v1's, you're rarely going to get any. 20 second kills are in 2v1 or better territory, not 1v1.

 

 

 

Neither did the hornets or the eagles. And they shot down MiG-29's for real.

 

Hornets shot down Chinese copy J-7s, easy face shots that anyone could do in their sleep. These J-7s did not engage until the F-14 CAP had passed as order by Iraqi ground controllers. Iraq was stupid for not giving the F-15 the credibility it deserved and paid for it. They feared the F-14 and strictly avoided it or ran from any AWG-9 indication. Just fact, talk to anyone THAT WAS THERE. I'm not going to start a debate here, this topic has been done to death all over the interwebs. Again, I'm not detracting from the F-15, just pointing out the F-14 is not a big fat, unmaneuverable beast.

[BlackLion213]

Never stated he was the only pilot, I just stated that those F14 wins were few and far between, then again did these F15 pilots go through something similar to Top Gun? And speaking of Top Gun, can it handle an F-5?

 

The USAF does have their own fighter weapons school based out of Nellis that operates under similar principles: http://www.nellis.af.mil/About/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/284156/united-states-air-force-weapons-school/

 

I doubt that losses were few and far between, but neither of us has compelling evidence to confirm their suspicions.

 

In any case, the F-14 (all models) could handle the F-5E quite well (if they could spot them). The F-14 holds significant advantages in rate/radius of turn, energy retention, acceleration (both level and unloaded), and rate of climb/vertical performance. The F-5E does have a better rate of roll, but that is their only advantage besides the difficulty spotting them.

 

-Nick

[RaceFuel85]

Never stated he was the only pilot, I just stated that those F14 wins were few and far between, then again did these F15 pilots go through something similar to Top Gun? And speaking of Top Gun, can it handle an F-5?

 

If you don't know that the USAF has it's own version of "top gun"..then how exactly do you presume to declare that the F-15's losses to F-14's were "few and far between"?

[VampireNZ]

The F-5E does have a better rate of roll, but that is their only advantage besides the difficulty spotting them.

 

-Nick

 

Don't forget the problem with its inverted flight tanks. It won't do a negative G push over. The latest intelligence tells us that the most it will do is one negative --

[Sideswipe]

Don't forget the problem with its inverted flight tanks. It won't do a negative G push over. The latest intelligence tells us that the most it will do is one negative --

 

You need to do your research on the clear and vast differences between the F-5 and the MiG-28.

[VampireNZ]

You need to do your research on the clear and vast differences between the F-5 and the MiG-28.

 

....

Edited July 20, 2017 by VampireNZ

[probad]

not quite sure who had the joke fly over their head here...

[addde]

not quite sure who had the joke fly over their head here...

 

pretty sure it was vampire :P

[The Black Swan]

not quite sure who had the joke fly over their head here...

 

Are you asking.... who was inverted?

[probad]

Are you asking.... who was inverted?

 

 

what do we call this, the wingwang?

[The Black Swan]

what do we call this, the wingwang?

 

Indeed :megalol:

[captain_dalan]

Now this kinda derailing i am completely in support of! :megalol::pilotfly: