How is f-14 maneuverability?

[Charly_Owl]

How will it compare with the MiG-21? Will the Fishbed be potent against the Tomcat?

[Paradox]

Tomcat will murder the MiG-21 in most instances unless the MiG pilot knows what he's doing to avoid being detected by the Tomcat.

 

A rear quarter dive with the radar off with an IR missile will be a viable tactic for the manned-missile types I feel. Pop-up attacks from out of the hills should work too.

 

At very high altitudes I don't feel like a MiG-21 can outmanoeuvre an AIM-54C at least not without a big drop in altitude. But we don't know which phoenix we're getting it should be interesting to see if we can avoid phoenixes in MiG-21s.

 

EDIT: Of course. Weird things happen in DCS Multiplayer and I expect to see some really great videos from both perspectives.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Paradox

[MBot]

In the MiG-21 with its crappy RWR you will never know when an AIM-54 is inbound, so this will be instant death.

 

According to Iranian combat expierience, also in the dogfight the F-14 will be superior to the MiG-21.

[Manuel_108]

Would be kinda sad if the F-14 was not op against the 15 year older Mig-21...

[MBot]

Would be kinda sad if the F-14 was not op against the 15 year older Mig-21...

 

The MiG-21bis and the F-14A both had their first flight in 1970 ;)

[captain_dalan]

Tomcat will murder the MiG-21 in most instances unless the MiG pilot knows what he's doing to avoid being detected by the Tomcat.

 

A rear quarter dive with the radar off with an IR missile will be a viable tactic for the manned-missile types I feel. Pop-up attacks from out of the hills should work too.

 

At very high altitudes I don't feel like a MiG-21 can outmanoeuvre an AIM-54C at least not without a big drop in altitude. But we don't know which phoenix we're getting it should be interesting to see if we can avoid phoenixes in MiG-21s.

 

EDIT: Of course. Weird things happen in DCS Multiplayer and I expect to see some really great videos from both perspectives.

 

Pretty much this.... aside from that, wining from a neutral merge in a 21 against the 14 would be very difficult. Not impossible, but difficult. The other guy/gal would basically have to do something silly.... something very silly... But then again you could say the same for the A-4 and F-5, still plenty of naval aviators got them selves humbled by these planes.

[Manuel_108]

The MiG-21bis and the F-14A both had their first flight in 1970 ;)

 

:surprise: But..but..look at the Mig's cockpit and compare it with the tomcats. The F-14 looks like a beautiful jet, the Fishbed more or less like a tractor. Unbeliveable!

[Charly_Owl]

Have you checked the A and B cockpits in comparison with the D for the Tomcat? There's a world of difference.

 

The A/B cockpits look like old school vietnam era cockpits, just like the MiG-21bis.

[Manuel_108]

Well, to be fair, it has 2 screens at the front and a more sophisticated hud, right?

[EngineerFalcon]

Well, to be fair, it has 2 screens at the front and a more sophisticated hud, right?

 

Well, the MiG-21 was designed primarily as an interceptor - It didn't need a complex radar, since it relied on GCI/AWACS, and a basic gyro sight was enough. The Tomcat, as a Fleet Defender, needed a very powerful radar for its weapons, and was designed with a fighter role in mind. But in the end Russian avionics tend to be less fancy than American ones.

[Manuel_108]

Indeed. I have no clue how good the Tomcat's hud is though.

[emg]

Well, to be fair, it has 2 screens at the front and a more sophisticated hud, right?

 

 

higher res at http://www.nasa.gov/centers/armstrong/multimedia/imagegallery/F-14/index.html#lowerAccordion-set1-slide6

Edited March 3, 2015 by emg

[Manuel_108]

What about this one? You can see in the render shots that there are screens indeed, or my eyes are playing tricks on me.

[schurem]

Perhaps nasa took out some unneeded stuff, such as the HSI.

 

A model front office;

 

 

A model back office;

 

Edited March 3, 2015 by schurem
for greater truth and learnings

[emg]

What about this one? You can see in the render shots that there are screens indeed, or my eyes are playing tricks on me.

 

That's true!

Could be NASA customized the cockpit of their test aircraft, like schurem said. I used to think the two-screen front cockpit was from an F-14A++ (a bombcat-ish upgrade in the early, mid-90's).

 

More about the NASA plane from the picture I posted:

NASA 991 had numerous special additions for high-angle-of-attack and spin-recovery research. These included a battery-powered auxiliary power unit, a flight test nose boom, and a special spin recovery system, consisting of forward mounted, hydraulically actuated canards and an emergency spin chute.

 

NASA's F-14 was first flown by NASA research pilots, but was later flown by Grumman, and by Navy test pilots from Naval Air Station (NAS) Patuxent River . The Navy test flights with the spin research vehicle constituted the first program that incorporated air combat maneuvering in its test flights at Dryden. The Navy brought F-14s from Point Mugu and NAS Miramar in San Diego to test the new spin control laws in combat situations. Although the new control laws proved valuable, the Navy did not incorporate them into production F-14s until the F-14D, nearly 15 years later.

 

Einar Enevoldson, the NASA test pilot on the project, developed a maneuvering technique to aid in testing these new spin control laws. This maneuvering technique was later adopted for use in F-18 High Angle-of-Attack Research Vehicle (HARV) spin tests.

 

Among the 212 flights completed for this research project, the F-14 also tested a flush air data system, for gathering data about air speed; provided an updated aeromodel, which is currently in use on Navy F-14 training simulators; created natural laminar flow baseline data for many of NASA's later laminar flow programs; and tested low altitude, asymmetric thrust.

 

F-14s were later used in laminar flow studies in the Variable Sweep Transition Flight Experiment program (VSTFE) on NASA's F-14 #834.

 

NASA 991 was delivered back to the Navy on September 6, 1985.

Edited March 3, 2015 by emg

[Manuel_108]

Very interesting, thanks!

[dartuil]

 

higher res at http://www.nasa.gov/centers/armstrong/multimedia/imagegallery/F-14/index.html#lowerAccordion-set1-slide6

 

Im not interested by this model but by the one with

 

Perhaps nasa took out some unneeded stuff, such as the HSI.

 

A model front office;

 

 

A model back office;

 

 

Im interested by this model only.

Sell it the price u want I pay for it!!

[Charly_Owl]

@ Dartuil:

 

It's not as simple as that. It's already a bloody miracle Leatherneck has the rights to make a sim for a Grumman product (people familiar with flight sims will remember the sh*tstorm brewed by them with the Pacific Fighters title of the Il-2 series). LN does not have the rights to model whatever variant they want: what we have in front of us is what Grumman allows them to do. Period. If you can't fly without all the fancy avionics of the D-series, well tough luck...

 

Personally, I'm very excited to see that we have the old school variants. It makes it that much more interesting. You'll have all the fancy MFDs you want with the F-18, don't you worry.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Charly_Owl

[dartuil]

@ Dartuil:

 

It's not as simple as that. It's already a bloody miracle Leatherneck has the rights to make a sim for a Grumman product (people familiar with flight sims will remember the sh*tstorm brewed by them with the Pacific Fighters title of the Il-2 series). LN does not have the rights to model whatever variant they want: what we have in front of us is what Grumman allows them to do. Period. If you can't fly without all the fancy avionics of the D-series, well tough luck...

 

Personally, I'm very excited to see that we have the old school variants. It makes it that much more interesting. You'll have all the fancy MFDs you want with the F-18, don't you worry.

 

Im truly aware of that.

Im aware they destroyed F-14 to avoid tech stealing too.

I know that F-14 never fight F-18 or maybe F-16 and f-15 too. :smilewink:

In fact if the thing can fight F-15 im in. I know its easy for me to talk but hard for me to get my chair to do something like the old Mig-21 that is one of the most advanced plane of DCS.

[Manuel_108]

Dont worry mate, we'll get the one below, not the initial test aircraft.

Btw, the F-14D looks like this rather:

Edited March 3, 2015 by Manuel_108
Pic doesn't embed

[aaron886]

The Tomcat had excellent low speed maneuvering potential for its day. It was an aerodynamically complicated airplane, though, and required a skilled pilot to keep things under control at the edge of the envelope. Across its speed range it had a wide variety of effects that change handling and performance. I can't wait to see how Leatherneck handles it!

[captain_dalan]

Yep, the NASA photo has the HSI and VDI removed. As for the basic HUD on the F-14 A/B (pre sparrowhawk) it's an interesting mix of 3rd and 4th gen HUDs. It displays less information then the later systems, but the way it represents them is also a bit "awkward". It is almost as if the HUD was designed for the F-14 mission only.

 

The overall tech in the Tomcat is ages ahead of the 21 though. It was actually the first plane that incorporated microprocessor technology if i recall correctly. It was probably the first platform in general in which the concept was implemented. And the aerodynamic concept it piloted and which the later legacy fighters followed (along with the Soviet response in Su-27 and MiG-29), was an order of magnitude above any previous cold war era jet.

[Woogey]

The F-14 has been known to Best the F-15 on multiple occasions. The F-14 can pull very high Alpha, to the point that it can perform the "Cobra" maneuver. The Phoenix missile is a joke, and NOT TO BE USED AGAINST FIGHTER AIRCRAFT. The Phoenix was designed to be used against non-maneuvering, high altitude bombers that are trying to penetrate, and destroy the Aircraft Carrier.

 

An old slower video, but a great bit of insight into the F-14's maneuvering capability.

 

[FSKRipper]

So according to the training Video it seems the Tomcat has to go vertical to beat the smaller more agile fighters. Would be usable against the T-38 and the MiG-21. A F-16 or the MiG-29 and up would be a hard nut to crack...

[captain_dalan]

The F-14 has been known to Best the F-15 on multiple occasions. The F-14 can pull very high Alpha, to the point that it can perform the "Cobra" maneuver. The Phoenix missile is a joke, and NOT TO BE USED AGAINST FIGHTER AIRCRAFT. The Phoenix was designed to be used against non-maneuvering, high altitude bombers that are trying to penetrate, and destroy the Aircraft Carrier.

 

An old slower video, but a great bit of insight into the F-14's maneuvering capability.

 

 

In a loaded turn, you can generally pull 29-32 degrees of true alpha, before you starting dropping your nose. In a wing level high altitude test it has been brought to over 40, way into the transitional airflow regime. It goes to fully separated airflow at over 60 i think. It is true, you can bring it to tail slide, the aerodynamic capability is there, but it's not advisable, at least not in the TF30 powered bird.

 

The problem is, once your nose starts dropping and you in the post stall environment, there is no magic switch or FBW to get you straight level or down. Depending on lots of external variables, one wing can drop before the other, generating enough sideslip angle to disturb the airflow in one/or both of the engines. At these high alpha states, that usually means a compressor stall. If by a chance you manage to keep the wings level as you stall, you may avoid it though..... still, it's too risky to try it in ACM.

 

As for the Phoenix, well.... it's a special case. It's not the most maneuverable missile, but then again it doesn't have to be. With it's flight profile, speed and warhead size, it can and has hit fighter sized targets.