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Control stiffening makes this thing flyable.


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As there is no thread or at least not a newish one I wanted to give some virtual love for the 109 now that it's out of beta and not snapping wing tips.

 

I've not played it hardly since I brought it over xmas. I sill loved the implementation, but the wing tips and all.

 

However, limited flight time in it is not a bad thing as I could not hit stuff using the static sight. I've been using the leading sights on the mustang and 190 have really helped get my eye in and while I'm no (your favourite german ace here) that fun (training) I had with the other two has helped a lot for gunnery with the 109. Not to mention the harder landing makes the dora a lot easier and the mustang you can pretty much close your eyes for it.

 

The spinning like a top type stall seems 'odd' and awkward, but looks not too bad in replays.

 

Overall the thing is a beast to shoot with now. I hope I encourage anyone who was sitting on the fence about buying it to take the leap.

 

I've not tried snapping the wings, but I've been in a few dogfights where I would normally snap they don't so either I'm getting better or the update has helped a lot.

 

EDIT - They do still snap, but you need ham fists now to do it.

 

 

Feel free to post if you think the same or tell me I'm typing trash (which is possible)

 

Have fun out there.


Edited by BFBunny
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The question is not, why do the wingtips of the 109 snap off.

The question must be, if the 109 is right, why have older planes not this problem!?

I flew all WWII planes in DCS to every limit, but the only plane where the wing tips snapping off is the 109, even with only ~5 Gs. It's not he whole wing we are talking like at the other planes. There is only this wing tip "magic" behavior at the 109.

Never heard from this. Never read from this (books).

The first ime I ever saw this was in DCS.

I hardly doupt that DCS shows how the real 109 was build, as I said above, the only "Document" above this, is DCS itself and why is the 109 the only plane with snapping wingtips?

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For me it is the best modeled 109 in the world ( :

 

... and yes, now it feels much, much better :thumbup:

You have to buy one!

Well... not yet. Still has no rudder stiffening and it still has overclimbing issues...

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My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS.

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And, somehow a feel of "too light / too loose" at least in the ground.

 

As your engine starts, and you start taxiing in the K4, it is as if it was half the weight it really is... It accelerates very easily down the taxiways, and it's sometimes difficult to control that lightness, IMO, lack of inertia, or an over powerful engine, can be the reason, I don't really know, or less drag than there should be ?

 

I also believe the tail surfaces should become "alive" at taxi speeds, specially with a burst of power here and there...

Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream...

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I agree with the OP. I didn't try the 109K much since the original beta release, letting the team to fix the betas teething problems first.

 

I did try it in the weekend, and oh boy. I love the stick force implementation. It feels real, it feels very like thereal 109 from what I have read in the accounts, the stick really gets limited at high speeds, but you can still pull respectable g-loads with it and it seems to me, though no precise measurements were made the rolling speeds are also neatly modeled. I did just a few brief trials runs to check the speeds at SL and at rated altitude, and it seems very close to the real thing's specs for this particular boost of 1.8ata, given imperfections in the flying, wind etc. Radiator kinematics also seemed to work nicely, and take off, landing gear interaction with the ground also seem to have improved greatly - no sudden jumps to one side or another, and it can be taken off with relative easy if you pay attention to what you are doing. If you do not, the plane still goes medieval on you in a most brutal way, just as it should.

 

The only thing that made an annoying reappearance is the tendency of the wings to come of at 6-7 gs. This is still needs to be fixed, or at least, explained.

 

Even at this early stage its flat out the best 109 FM I have ever seen. No gamey mechanics, no overdone flight qualities to match anecdotes for even the blind and deaf to hear and see, the physics are believable and seem to work right to our real life expectation of how real world objects would behave.

 

 

In short, well done, Yo Yo and thank you for all your work that has been put into this wonderful K-4 ! :thumbup:

http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse!

-Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment

The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.

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As discussed wildly in our teamspeak without result. My Question is.

 

Assumed max ingame stick deflection would be 30% degree at 500 kph.

 

Is it implemented like

 

Case 1:

 

30% joystick movement => 30% ingame stick movement further moving joystick cuted off ?

 

or is it

 

Case 2:

 

100% joystick movement => 30% ingame stick

30% joystick movement => 9% ingame stick ?

 

Many thanks

 

Durchschuss

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Case 2 is how it should be IMHO. Us guys without force feedback only have deflection to measure force.

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I really hope it s case 1, no clue how you could prefer case 2.

Case 2 would be a game stopper for me.

 

Case one would be provide much more control.

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Case 2 is how it should be IMHO. Us guys without force feedback only have deflection to measure force.

 

There wasn't any change in the ffb response with the addition of stick forces to the 109. Even if the virtual joystick cannot be moved all the way, you can deflect the physical joystick as much as you like.

 

P.S. It is like case 1 for all joysticks. It just takes a while for the virtual stick to move because of the work (force over a distance).


Edited by gavagai

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P.S. It is like case 1 for all joysticks. It just takes a while for the virtual stick to move because of the work (force over a distance).

 

Which is what makes it realistic. There is a rate limit pilot's can move a control as the force on that control builds.

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

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Which is what makes it realistic. There is a rate limit pilot's can move a control as the force on that control builds.

 

Yes but how do you simulate the fact that a stronger (not necessarily a better) pilot could move the joystick a couple of degrees more than a weaker one? (assuming the same conditions in the air)

 

Or is that a sim limitation that people are just going to have to live with?

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....The only thing that made an annoying reappearance is the tendency of the wings to come of at 6-7 gs. This is still needs to be fixed, or at least, explained.

That's not a bug. is a bad joke.

 

Even at this early stage its flat out the best 109 FM I have ever seen

.

Kurfürst, you has surprised me with that statement. I think the DCS:Bf-109K4 is still in swaddling clothes, and it is early to say that it is the best.

or ..Do you call "FM" ,to the ability to click buttons, and levers with the mouse ?... That is not Flight Model.

 

No gamey mechanics, no overdone flight qualities to match anecdotes for even the blind and deaf to hear and see, the physics are believable and seem to work right to our real life expectation of how real world objects would behave.

Kurfurst everything else is Ok for you?

- The fuel pressure cut at 3 seconds inverted flight or negative G´s.

- the elevator trim full nose-down flying at cruise speed.

- wing drop in tightened turns with auto-slats deployed

- No capability for pure spin, flat spin, and easy recovering as reality in less than 3 turns.

All of that is right for you?

Kurfurst, I have thought always that your role, was the "Guardian of Truth" about the Bf-109, ..but this comment, it now appears that you are satisfied with anything small.

Do not be afraid to demand what you think is right, we are many fans of the Bf-109 to support you.

I pay with real money and I want realistic FM, . I have seen flying a real Bf-109 in Berlin in 2012 ... and it no stop the engine inverted flight, and no wing drops in tuns.

 

You can see the Bf-109 aerobatic show at minute 15:50


Edited by III/JG52_Otto_+
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Yes but how do you simulate the fact that a stronger (not necessarily a better) pilot could move the joystick a couple of degrees more than a weaker one? (assuming the same conditions in the air)

 

Or is that a sim limitation that people are just going to have to live with?

 

Given from what I have tried even at high speed you can still pull 5-6 gs I don't think it matters so much. Yes the stick and the elevator control surfaces move less but they also have more effect, and frankly pulling more would only result in blackouts and bent/broken wings.

 

The only real limitation is the ailerons, because you cannot displace them fully your roll rate, which is avarage to start with, suffers and you can only do slow rolls. That's the only practical limitation you have to live with.

http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse!

-Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment

The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.

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That's not a bug. is a bad joke.

 

Well, basically I agree with that - I think wing breaks is the worst part of the FM currently. Something is simply off. But there are a lot of improvements in other areas.

 

Kurfürst, you has surprised me with that statement. I think the DCS:Bf-109K4 is still in swaddling clothes, and it is early to say that it is the best.

or ..Do you call "FM" ,to the ability to click buttons, and levers with the mouse ?... That is not Flight Model.

 

Its not perfect yet, no. But already the best - given that AFAIK only Aces High ( :megalol: ), some MS FS modules (:doh: ) and the old Il-2 models the K-4 (which was wrong in several places, like overheat, altitude model, 3d model etc. and far more simple FM).

 

When I take up the DCS K-4, it feels real. And its the only one that kills you in the ground already if you go easy on her for a second.

 

Kurfurst everything else is Ok for you?

- The fuel pressure cut at 3 seconds inverted flight or negative G´s.

- the elevator trim full nose-down flying at cruise speed.

- wing drop in tightened turns with auto-slats deployed

- No capability for pure spin, flat spin, and easy recovering as reality in less than 3 turns.

All of that is right for you?

 

The fuel pressure thing is annoying to be sure and I wonder what causes it - all fuel forced to the top of the tank but no accounting for that there may be enough left in the bottom to still the reach the pumps..? An explanation would help, I certainly do not know of such thing happening, but with a complex system modelling as in DCS, it might be some odd coincidence in the systems.

 

Elevator trim, it seems odd but the stability tests seem to support it, as do some vague comments from WW2 pilots. Given I have seen nothing to contradict it, I guess I can't say its wrong.

 

Wing drop - slats to dot prevent one wing stalling, maybe its a slideslip (pilot) issue. I had no issues in maintaining her in very tight turn though, its much easier than in the early builds.

 

Spins, flats the real thing was extremely unlikely go into one and in the admittedly very little time I was able to spend in the virtual aircraft, I did not encounter it. The wings always broke first. :D

 

Kurfurst, I have thought always that your role, was the "Guardian of Truth" about the Bf-109, ..but this comment, it now appears that you are satisfied with anything small.

Do not be afraid to demand what you think is right, we are many fans of the Bf-109 to support you.

I pay with real money and I want realistic FM, . Yo have seen flying a real Bf-109 in Berlin in 2012 ... and it no stop the engine inverted flight, and no wing drops in tuns.

 

 

I am satisfied with the overall quality. Very much so. Quite frankly if the thing would still have all the bugs I would still enjoy it, because the DCS module flies, takes off and lands so realistically or at least close, than nothing else in any other sim. The thing flies much like as I would expect the real aircraft to fly. Its an absolute performance beast, good handling yet it has some yaw instability both on the ground and in the air. Engine management is a piece of cake, as on all LW aircraft. speed specs seem to be fine, I did not try climb so much because its difficult the accurately measure and I did not have time.

 

If I have a serious issues with something its the netcode of the multiplayer module - there are no words for it. The SP module is fully fliud with high FPS, the same thing in MP often turns into slideshow.

 

And yes the engine should stop in inverted flight. The 109 fuel system was not prepeared for inverted flight, the fuel would go into the top of the fuel tank, and there was no fuel pump there -> fuel starvation in a matter of seconds. One restored 109 even suffered an engine stop due to that recently. Its also specifically mentioned in 109 manuals that prolonged inverted flights are not possible (why would anyone need to do that?), though I suppose it might be possible if you are pulling g-load during that phase.

http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse!

-Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment

The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.

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Yes but how do you simulate the fact that a stronger (not necessarily a better) pilot could move the joystick a couple of degrees more than a weaker one? (assuming the same conditions in the air)

 

There is actually measured data. IIRC, our pilot exert's some 34Kg/sec on the stick. That is a lot of force.

 

Or is that a sim limitation that people are just going to have to live with?

 

Pretty much and it is a realistic one too. I think DCS modeled the effect after a NACA investigation on the maximum stick forces a pilot could exert.

 

Part of that study is the maximum rate pilots could move the controls. That is really the thing missing in most "sims".

 

Our pilot is quite strong as evidenced by all the broken wings.

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

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And yes the engine should stop in inverted flight. The 109 fuel system was not prepeared for inverted flight, the fuel would go into the top of the fuel tank, and there was no fuel pump there -> fuel starvation in a matter of seconds. One restored 109 even suffered an engine stop due to that recently. Its also specifically mentioned in 109 manuals that prolonged inverted flights are not possible (why would anyone need to do that?), though I suppose it might be possible if you are pulling g-load during that phase.

 

if I am correctly informed, the electric fuel pump P2 is inside the tank, and this feeds the engine in G's negative and inverted flight.

11041228_10206436465772733_260781860046564825_n.jpg?oh=938842e8472fd84b480dfac2643050c2&oe=558B65A5

edited to add a more correct picture:

The electric fuel pump was installed in the top cover of fuel tank in the GUSTAV versions, et seq.


Edited by III/JG52_Otto_+
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if I am correctly informed, the electric fuel pump P2 is inside the tank, and this feeds the engine in G's negative and inverted flight.

 

How? The pump is at the bottom of the tank. If the tank is not topped with fuel, I would reason the fuel go to the top of the tank during inverted or negative g flight, and pump cannot reach it. The only fuel being fed to the engine would be the fuel left in the pipelines - which would run out after a couple of seconds.

 

In a loop you have positive g load applied so the fuel would go to the bottom of the tank, and thus reachable by the pumps.

http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse!

-Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment

The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.

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The problem i see with constrol stiffening is it's also active at low speeds.You can't pull the stick violently all the way at lower speeds to take evasive action when somebody is firing at you.The simulated stick moves slower than my stick on the desk and this should not hapen at low speeds.

It's ok the way it's modeled for high speed.


Edited by otto
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if I am correctly informed, the electric fuel pump P2 is inside the tank, and this feeds the engine in G's negative and inverted flight.

 

 

With due respect you are wrong. That schematics shows that P2 fuel pump is not electrical inside fuel tank and all fuel pump take fuel from bottom forward and rear tank. Electrical internal pump is in the same line that P1 fuel pump and take fuel from rear bottom tank. P2 fuel pump take from forward bottom tank.

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The problem i see with constrol stiffening is it's also active at low speeds.You can't pull the stick violently all the way at lower speeds to take evasive action when somebody is firing at you.The simulated stick moves slower than my stick on the desk and this should not hapen at low speeds.

It's ok the way it's modeled for high speed.

 

Stick for per g is pretty much constant unless you get near 1 Mach.

 

This quality also saves you from dynamic stalls though. I guess when the WW2 Plane Planned Second comes to DCS, many will appreciate this stick behavior. ;)

http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site

 

Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse!

-Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment

The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945.

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  • ED Team

Case 1. But with special "grey zone" of dynamic nonlinearity before the hard stop.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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Case 1. But with special "grey zone" of dynamic nonlinearity before the hard stop.

 

Ahh, that is the weird instability that I sometimes experience!!

 

Now, it is not so weird.

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

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As much as I like the way the 109 flies now. I'm not 100% sure the ground handling feels too right. I can do it fairly well now, but it looks a lot easier and looks a lot more natural in the real thing or maybe that's what a pro pilot with 100s of hours in one real plane looks like.

 

There is some work that could be done still too it I think. I think this is how they should have shipped the beta version.

 

I still think it's worth buying if your into the 109 though and I don't have buyers remorse with it now.

 

Those paper wings were a bit ridiculous.

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