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F-14 low speed prowess vs Other Aircraft


Hummingbird
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I hope that the F-14's prowess in low speed turning will be modelled by leatherneck.

 

Could do a full 360 min radius turn in under 20 sec at sea level, setting the record at Abbotsford in 1986.

 

 

The F-14 might have had a slow roll, but it would turn & burn better than most.


Edited by Hummingbird
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Roll rates won't do any good unless it can turn like this bird can.. F14 is all about stick and rudder. It is an amazing fighter And I'm certain the only reason the navy got rid of her was maintenance costs plus political pressure from Boeing. I love the F18 but the capabilities for extreme bvr cannot be understated. The shock value of a missile you have no idea was fired at you till the last minute had to be unnerving.

 

The fact that most people tend to forget about extreme range bvr is this.. The phoenix missile is deadly accurate. However, the first 4 letters of any missile is MISS. Even if it does miss, your enemy was just forced to go defensive giving you the advantage in the forthcoming merge.

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Matt "IceFire" Schuette



Commander In Chief United States Atlantic Command

Virtual Carrier Air Wing Eleven

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check out that wingflex...

 

the tomcat Aim54 combo definitely kept the soviet naval air arm on their toes, (so they must not have thought it was a rubbish weapon) but in USN service it didn't have any providence. It would be really interesting to see how the weapon ACTUALLY performed in the Iraq-Iran war.

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Is wingflex modeled in any of the current DCS modules at all? TBH I didn't notice it.

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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Not much point modelling advanced flight characteristics if you don't include all the abilities/shortcomings of the prototype, so I would hazard a guess and say if the Tomcat did it, our Tomcat ought to.

 

Wing flex is I believe modelled already in some of the modules. I guess it all just comes down to how well the module will be modelled. All we can say for certain at this stage is that it will be as close to the real thing as Leatherneck can get it, and it will more than likely be light years ahead of any other attempt at modelling the F-14.

 

I always see the modules as evolutionary, so I have every confidence that any shortcomings will be addressed as the Tomcat evolves. What those shortcomings are perceived to be is in the lap of the gods right now.

 

I just know I will be getting it on the first day it goes on sale, as I do with all DCS Modules.

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Thanks Vincent, yes rotor blade flex is a fairly obvious one I was thinking of fixed winged aircraft.

 

As for day one buys, Im not really into that although I have already broken that rule with at least half of the DCS modules I own. :)

The F14 will most definitely be a day one alpha/beta (whatever form it takes) purchase :)

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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Don't think an F-15 can do a 19.5 sec 360 deg min radius turn like that, fastest I've seen is 22 sec for the F-15.

 

Man I can't wait for the F-14 :bounce:

The F-15 has other virtues though. It is a superb climber and overall among the best transonic performers out there. A part of the envelope we don't get to appreciate on the airshows, as it is very difficult to demonstrate to the audience.

 

But yes, the F-14 was a very good turning machine, especially in the mid subsonic range :thumbup:

Current modules:

FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map......ah yes, forgot the Super Carrier! Shows you how often i fly these days....

Modules in waiting: MiG-23, A-6, F-4U, F-8, Falklands Map

Wish list: South East Asia map, F-4J/N, F-15A/C, Su-27, Sea Harrier FRS.1, Mirage III, MiG-17.

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Don't think an F-15 can do a 19.5 sec 360 deg min radius turn like that, fastest I've seen is 22 sec for the F-15.

 

Man I can't wait for the F-14 :bounce:

 

What's 360/21? Looks like less than 20 seconds... But you're not allowed to make a max g turn for an airshow.

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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The F-15 has other virtues though. It is a superb climber and overall among the best transonic performers out there. A part of the envelope we don't get to appreciate on the airshows, as it is very difficult to demonstrate to the audience.

 

But yes, the F-14 was a very good turning machine, especially in the mid subsonic range :thumbup:

 

You're absolutely correct, at high transonic speeds the F-15 does hold the edge, whilst the opposite is true at subsonic speeds.

 

In addition to an impressive climb rate the F-15 also features a substantially quicker roll rate.

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What's 360/21? Looks like less than 20 seconds... But you're not allowed to make a max g turn for an airshow.

True. It would be a bit above 18deg/s in this case. But the choice of wording confuses me somewhat. The minimum radius turn is usually not the same a the best performance turn (turn rate), so if we like to compute the G, we need to know the airspeed. The best turn rates in the cat are performed at 350 and 420 knots (roughly), so this must be less then 350. Probably much less. Does anyone know the actual radius here? Maybe we can roughly estimate the speed, and thus the G's being pulled....

 

EDIT:

 

In addition to an impressive climb rate the F-15 also features a substantially quicker roll rate.

And from i've read, it had very crisp and responsive controls, especially for a non FBW plane.


Edited by captain_dalan

Current modules:

FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map......ah yes, forgot the Super Carrier! Shows you how often i fly these days....

Modules in waiting: MiG-23, A-6, F-4U, F-8, Falklands Map

Wish list: South East Asia map, F-4J/N, F-15A/C, Su-27, Sea Harrier FRS.1, Mirage III, MiG-17.

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I don't think a minimum radius turn can be performed at maximum allowed G for the airframe. Won't the AC run out of lift before it runs out of Gs?

Current modules:

FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map......ah yes, forgot the Super Carrier! Shows you how often i fly these days....

Modules in waiting: MiG-23, A-6, F-4U, F-8, Falklands Map

Wish list: South East Asia map, F-4J/N, F-15A/C, Su-27, Sea Harrier FRS.1, Mirage III, MiG-17.

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Why does it have to? A 35000lbs eagle can hold more than 9g in terms of available power. Below the minimum speed where you can pull max g, sustained min radius turn is basically a comparison of available g at a given airspeed. While I'm certain the cat can do a bit better at slow speed, I don't believe it can do that much better. And if it was an instantaneous turn, then again there's a g limit.

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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... Below the minimum speed where you can pull max g, sustained min radius turn is basically a comparison of available g at a given airspeed.....

Exactly. And this is why i wrote that the choice of wording is somewhat confusing. What exactly do they mean by minimum radius in this case? If it's a constant value, then we can find out how many G's were pulled based the time it took for the turn to be made. As bellow corner all the G's available a lower then the maximum allowed, if the minimum turning radius is performed at low enough speed it may actually fall inside the limitations. I.E. even a 5g turn would give a turn radius of less then 1500ft at 250knots, though in this case, by the wing flex i'd say it looks more like they are pulling around 6, which is still well within the structural limits for the clear bird at fuel states this low.

Current modules:

FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map......ah yes, forgot the Super Carrier! Shows you how often i fly these days....

Modules in waiting: MiG-23, A-6, F-4U, F-8, Falklands Map

Wish list: South East Asia map, F-4J/N, F-15A/C, Su-27, Sea Harrier FRS.1, Mirage III, MiG-17.

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Altitude also makes a big difference, the first F-15 vs F-14 duels where unofficial hassles at the end of ACEVAL/AIMVAL in the late 1970s. These fights took place at medium or low altitude and ended badly for the F-15. In fact, publication of the results nearly killed the JASDF/F-15J deal. This was mostly because the F-15 wing is optimized for high altitudes and the TF30 performs MUCH better below 10,000' (near sea level and mach 1 it makes nearly as much thrust as the F110 - 28,000 vs 30,900).

 

However, it didn't take the F-15 pilots long to figure things out. If they kept the fight up high (~20,000') and avoided one-circle fights, they could beat up the F-14A fairly easily. The F-14A+/B leveled the playing field by closing the gap in energy/vertical maneuvers. With the re-engined F-14s, the Tomcat retains an advantage in rate/radius of turns, but the F-15 can offset that in flat scissors with it's superior roll rate. The Tomcats will try to keep the fight either one-circle or rolling scissors (the late model Tomcats also started to use asymmetric thrust in BFM to really make rapid transitions in rolling scissors - reliable engines make such a difference!).

 

Both airframes have pros and cons, but the F-15 is also more user friendly which is a significant "real world" advantage. That really haunted the F-14A in BFM, lots of average pilots would stay far from the edge of the envelope - they'd rather lose ACM training than risk that small chance of control departure/ejection/possible death. Thats part of why you hear such wide disparities in the stories told. A solid aircrew could really make the F-14 sing and plenty of F-16 pilots fell to F-14As in BFM, especially one circle fights near the hard-deck. But lots of F-14As rapidly got gunned if they wasted their energy or didn't feel confident operating near the edge of the envelope. Digital flight controls (Vipers and Hornets) really adds confidence and the results are hard to dispute.

 

-Nick

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fly-by smly-by.

 

On my bikes and cars, I hate any ABS or traction control, because it limits what I CAN do with the vehicle.

 

so it seems the lesson is, don't be shit, and win the fight? :P

 

On a serious note, that was a very interesting post. The tomcats fickle handling certainly seemed to cost a lot of lives and airframes. But the overall result seems not much different to say the tests done between the F-4 and the MIG-21 where the contest was invariably determined on pilot skill, not the air frame. But in saying that it is very true the military is always looking for ways to reduce its training liability, FBW is a perfect example. would have been interesting to see what would have happened if the design came out 10 years latter when FBW was becoming the norm in US fighters. It seemed the TF30 was a bag thing the tomcat inherinted from the VFX, the good thing being the AWG-9/Phoenix. It sure worked on the F-111, but mainly straight line, high speed 200ft AGL was what was called for, not ACM.

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It would have been interesting for sure, but as the Cold War ended 10 years after (roughly), i don't think the NAVY would have gotten their hands on that F-14 in the first place :(

Current modules:

FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map......ah yes, forgot the Super Carrier! Shows you how often i fly these days....

Modules in waiting: MiG-23, A-6, F-4U, F-8, Falklands Map

Wish list: South East Asia map, F-4J/N, F-15A/C, Su-27, Sea Harrier FRS.1, Mirage III, MiG-17.

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However, it didn't take the F-15 pilots long to figure things out. If they kept the fight up high (~20,000') and avoided one-circle fights, they could beat up the F-14A fairly easily. The F-14A+/B leveled the playing field by closing the gap in energy/vertical maneuvers. With the re-engined F-14s, the Tomcat retains an advantage in rate/radius of turns, but the F-15 can offset that in flat scissors with it's superior roll rate. The Tomcats will try to keep the fight either one-circle or rolling scissors (the late model Tomcats also started to use asymmetric thrust in BFM to really make rapid transitions in rolling scissors - reliable engines make such a difference!).

 

First of all excellent post Nick. I was wondering if you like to explain a lite bit more on how the F-15 can offset the flat scissors maneuver because of the roll rate. I know the F-15 has superior roll rate, but I didn't know that the F-14's roll rate was so bad that it would actually mater. On the Air show demos that are uploaded on net, when both planes do a 180° roll in turns i can't seem to notice more than a second difference in F-15's favor. :)

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Scissors are done at slow speeds; at combat speeds you might not see much of a roll difference, but then again the Eagle's CAS tries to maintain a very constant roll rate since at higher speeds it could do something ridiculous and unwanted on the order of 500deg/s.

 

The CAS tries to maintain 250deg/s IIRC. At slow speeds, the roll rate will be much slower, and that's where you'll start to see differences IF both aircraft are trying to perform a max deflection roll.

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[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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First of all excellent post Nick. I was wondering if you like to explain a lite bit more on how the F-15 can offset the flat scissors maneuver because of the roll rate. I know the F-15 has superior roll rate, but I didn't know that the F-14's roll rate was so bad that it would actually mater. On the Air show demos that are uploaded on net, when both planes do a 180° roll in turns i can't seem to notice more than a second difference in F-15's favor. :)

Alternatively you can attempt snap rolling to bump your instantaneous roll rate by quite a margin, you need to be careful not to depart the plane or cause asymmetrical airflow in the engines by inducing too strong lateral inputs (i'm talking about the TF30 powered Tomcat here, i have never read if the F100 powered Eagles had issues with large side slip at high alpha).

Current modules:

FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map......ah yes, forgot the Super Carrier! Shows you how often i fly these days....

Modules in waiting: MiG-23, A-6, F-4U, F-8, Falklands Map

Wish list: South East Asia map, F-4J/N, F-15A/C, Su-27, Sea Harrier FRS.1, Mirage III, MiG-17.

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