Jump to content

Multiseat a/c module policy


Recommended Posts

Perhaps the better question is, how much do we have to pay for a good RIO?

 

You hook em and I'll clean em and fry em, aha.

Windows 10 Pro, Ryzen 2700X @ 4.6Ghz, 32GB DDR4-3200 GSkill (F4-3200C16D-16GTZR x2),

ASRock X470 Taichi Ultimate, XFX RX6800XT Merc 310 (RX-68XTALFD9)

3x ASUS VS248HP + Oculus HMD, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS + MFDs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally wouldn't mind if the backseat was occupied by a person who didn't pay and their controls/cockpit was locked out.. essentially just a person along for the ride. They would just look around and enjoy the ride (or take pics/screenies of some MIG 28 while we flipped them birds upside down ;)). But if they paid, now I have a full fledged RIO/WSO. Something like that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ummm, no. If you bought the module, you should play for free.

 

Ummm, yes. You shouldn't need to buy the module to play support in the back seat.

 

 

Lolz. Let's see how long we can keep this going...

 

Windows 7 Enterprise 64bit | i7-4790K@4GHz | 8GB RAM | GTX970 347.52

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, I think if you play in the back seat, you should play for free. No-one would pay to be someone else's support person.

 

You have not looked at the forum enough.

 

Ummm, yes. You shouldn't need to buy the module to play support in the back seat.

Why not? If you're in the back, you're using the module. It only makes sense that one needs to buy to do that.

 

If it ends up free, that's a nice bonus, but it's hardly to be expected.

Awaiting: DCS F-15C

Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is absolutely no common sense in letting people sit in the back for free. None at all. One module , one price , both seats available. That's how its going to work and i wouldnt have it any other way

 

No, actually it's going to work the other way, cos' that's how I would have it!

Windows 7 Enterprise 64bit | i7-4790K@4GHz | 8GB RAM | GTX970 347.52

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have not looked at the forum enough.

I've looked at the forum plenty, thank you.

 

Why not? If you're in the back, you're using the module. It only makes sense that one needs to buy to do that.

Because playing in back is a supporting role, not a starring one and so if a person has a choice between front or back, they'll choose the front. This means 1) developers make $0 extra dollars by charging for the back seat 2) online, two seaters will always have an empty/AI back seat.

 

However, if the back seat is free 1) players can get a taste of module, on which basis they might buy it, generating sales and 2) real players will actually fly in the back online. This benefits the developers, the online experience and therefore DCS as a whole.

 

The working assumption, of course, is that to play in the back for free you need someone in the front who has bought the module.

 

If it ends up free, that's a nice bonus, but it's hardly to be expected.

Yes, I agree.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying consumers have some kind of moral entitlement to play back seat for free - of course they don't.

 

I'm just saying it makes business sense from Eagle Dynamics / 3rd party developer standpoint and that it would benefit the online experience and DCS community as a whole.

 

That is why I'm lobbying for it - not because I want a free plane.

Windows 7 Enterprise 64bit | i7-4790K@4GHz | 8GB RAM | GTX970 347.52

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Take the F-14. You're essentially getting 2 complex simulations in 1 - pilot and RIO. I can't see Leatherneck putting all that work into the RIO just to give it away for free. In fact, it would mean "pilots" would probably have to pay more for the module to cover the cost of the free RIO position.

 

AFAIK they did exactly that at least with UH-1, you get all positions for price of one module. You just cant man them simultaneously. I am sure that they accounted for this in price.

Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Including cockpit art assets as integrated part of base install would drive up the download sizes as well as complicate protection issuss.

 

There's no need to integrate them into base dcs world install, they can be downloaded later, the same way as when somebody buys module.

Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But that can also mean, that you can invite friends to take a ride along (the same as you can with your car). In that sense it won't be freebie from ED, but from module owner. It can work either way and one can find logical arguments to support either version.

 

"Back seat" in the airplane doesnt mean you are doing nothing. You are working just as much as the pilot does.

 

You buy a module eg. F14. So you get ability to use both seats in mp and so.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies.

 

My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS.

My channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Back seat" in the airplane doesnt mean you are doing nothing. You are working just as much as the pilot does.

 

You buy a module eg. F14. So you get ability to use both seats in mp and so.

 

Sorry, I don't see connection with my post. Did I somewhere stated something like that?

Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've looked at the forum plenty, thank you.

 

Don't worry, that was sort of sarcasim-ish. Though really, enough fuss has been made about multiseat that I'm very willing to say people are willing to go back seat.

 

 

Because playing in back is a supporting role, not a starring one and so if a person has a choice between front or back, they'll choose the front. This means 1) developers make $0 extra dollars by charging for the back seat 2) online, two seaters will always have an empty/AI back seat.

But what reasoning is everyone going to choose the front?

 

That's like saying if people play online together, everyone will want to be flight lead. That doesn't happen, plenty are willing to fly wingman.

 

The devs make plenty off the back seat because it's a selling point. It's part of why people are buying the module in the first place. You can't say anything about online at the moment, but from reaction on this forum at least, there will sure be human back seaters. Everyone who bought the module is a potential RIO/copilot/etc.

 

However, if the back seat is free 1) players can get a taste of module, on which basis they might buy it, generating sales and 2) real players will actually fly in the back online. This benefits the developers, the online experience and therefore DCS as a whole.

It seems odd that you claim no one is going to want to ride the back seat but then go on to say trying the back seat will lead them to buy the module. If what you're saying is true, no one would even want to try it and it certainly wouldn't lead them to buying anything, because all they would care about would be the front.

 

The working assumption, of course, is that to play in the back for free you need someone in the front who has bought the module.

 

 

Yes, I agree.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying consumers have some kind of moral entitlement to play back seat for free - of course they don't.

 

This is how I understood your stance. I consider free back seat something no to expect because of the possible complexity and because I don't think the benefits will be as great as you imagine, if they exist at all.

  • Like 1

Awaiting: DCS F-15C

Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Repped for a thoughtful mature reply.

 

The issue seems to be whether players will buy a module to play in the back seat. Perhaps it would be worth doing a poll to see if someone has the choice between the front and the back seat which they would choose?

 

PS, i think you missed quote braces around "The working assumption, of course, is that to play in the back for free you need someone in the front who has bought the module."

 

~S

 

tsb47

Windows 7 Enterprise 64bit | i7-4790K@4GHz | 8GB RAM | GTX970 347.52

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've looked at the forum plenty, thank you.

 

 

Because playing in back is a supporting role, not a starring one and so if a person has a choice between front or back, they'll choose the front. This means 1) developers make $0 extra dollars by charging for the back seat 2) online, two seaters will always have an empty/AI back seat.

 

However, if the back seat is free 1) players can get a taste of module, on which basis they might buy it, generating sales and 2) real players will actually fly in the back online. This benefits the developers, the online experience and therefore DCS as a whole.

 

The working assumption, of course, is that to play in the back for free you need someone in the front who has bought the module.

 

 

Yes, I agree.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying consumers have some kind of moral entitlement to play back seat for free - of course they don't.

 

I'm just saying it makes business sense from Eagle Dynamics / 3rd party developer standpoint and that it would benefit the online experience and DCS community as a whole.

 

That is why I'm lobbying for it - not because I want a free plane.

 

I completely agree with tsb47. This will be a rewritten and re-edited version of a couple of posts I made before in a similar thread so if you recognize some of this, now you know why.

 

The reason I think it's a good idea being able to be the RIO without owning the module, especially when you keep in mind that DCS World is free, is that you can give people who aren't into DCS a taste of what its really like without any economical ramifications.

 

I don't know about you, but I find it very hard to enjoy DCS without a HOTAS and a TrackIR. FSX, for example, is very enjoyable with a bottom shelf joystick and no TrackIR, as it doesn't require the same ability to keep situational awareness while pulling off disorienting maneuvers and to be able to switch between radar modes, weapon bays, countermeasure programs, and so on, without letting go of your throttle and stick. That's the pro of the RIO seat. You can control the avionics with your keyboard and pan your view with your mouse since you don't have to worry about flying. People aren't going to spend $200-300 on gear, and then an extra $50 odd bucks on a module if they're not sure they'll actually like it.

 

And about the TF-51 and the SU-25T, they're great for people who already fly other flight sims and thus have enough skills (and the gear) to quickly get into DCS without much of a learning curve, but I think it's easier to give the average "non-simmer" a taste of what DCS and the module in question is really like if they can jump into the pit after learning the RIO equipment and fly along with a "pro", getting a taste of real combat rather than trying to fly an entire mission on their own when they barely manage to take off properly, not to mention all the tactics and aircraft systems that need to be (thoroughly) studied just to complete your mission and make it back in one piece.

 

Also, without trying to sound too cheesy, there are so many emotions you feel when you're flying in combat that you simply can't convey through words. The feeling of desperately trying to find a missile trail just after a surprise SAM launch. The feeling of limping home with a damaged aircraft with only fumes left in the tanks. The feeling of trying to catch a wire in strong crosswinds, at night, in poor visibility. The feeling of being in a chaotic dogfight, trying to differentiate between friend and foe before you pull the trigger, all while you have someone trying to get on your six. It's a big difference watching all of this happen in a let's play on youtube, and actually being there, experiencing it.

 

And the people I play DCS with on a regular basis and who will be flying with me 99% of the time, as both RIOs, pilots, and wingmen, are already eagerly waiting to pay for the F-14 module. I want this for the people who don't play DCS. What DCS pilot would choose not to buy the module and instead spend all of their time in multiplayer flying as a RIO just to not have to pay?

 

I just don't think there is anything to be lost by doing this. If the RIO doesn't like the module, then no harm done. If they do they'll probably buy the module and perhaps other modules as well. They way I see it, it's a win-win.

 

If there is one thing that wouldn't hurt the DCS community, it's more players! More players = more fun and more revenue!

-Col. Russ Everts opinion on surface-to-air missiles: "It makes you feel a little better if it's coming for one of your buddies. However, if it's coming for you, it doesn't make you feel too good, but it does rearrange your priorities."

 

DCS Wishlist:

MC-130E Combat Talon   |   F/A-18F Lot 26   |   HH-60G Pave Hawk   |   E-2 Hawkeye/C-2 Greyhound   |   EA-6A/B Prowler   |   J-35F2/J Draken   |   RA-5C Vigilante

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread reminds me of a saying by S. Poitier:

 

"Winning is not enough, my friends have to fail."

 

... if I paid for it you cant even have a glance for free but must pay as I did.

 

Pretty selfish imho

 

Bit

  • Like 1

Gigabyte Aorus X570S Master - Ryzen 5900X - Gskill 64GB 3200/CL14@3600/CL14 - Asus 1080ti EK-waterblock - 4x Samsung 980Pro 1TB - 1x Samsung 870 Evo 1TB - 1x SanDisc 120GB SSD - Heatkiller IV - MoRa3-360LT@9x120mm Noctua F12 - Corsair AXi-1200 - TiR5-Pro - Warthog Hotas - Saitek Combat Pedals - Asus PG278Q 27" QHD Gsync 144Hz - Corsair K70 RGB Pro - Win11 Pro/Linux - Phanteks Evolv-X 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

... if I paid for it you cant even have a glance for free but must pay as I did.

Yes, some people are far too concerned about the money other people are spending (or not spending) rather than their own personal enjoyment of the product. Unless it can be determined that providing free access to the back seat reduces the number of modules that get sold, then I am mildly in favor of free back seat access.

 

I believe increasing the potential exposure of DCS is likely (though not certain) to result in more modules being sold. I am not very likely to buy an entire module for someone if I am not sure if they will enjoy it, but if I have a free seat in my plane then I know multiple people I would encourage to try it out.

 

Perhaps at the very least it should be left as an option to the developer, so if some third party developers want to provide free multiplayer back seats then they are able too, while other third parties could require all crew members to pay for the module. I would be interested in seeing both implementations.


Edited by VincentLaw

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
This thread reminds me of a saying by S. Poitier:

 

"Winning is not enough, my friends have to fail."

 

... if I paid for it you cant even have a glance for free but must pay as I did.

 

Pretty selfish imho

 

Bit

 

This thread has gotten silly...

 

If you want the F-14 (either seat) buy it... with all the sales and such, it really shouldnt be a big issue in the long run, if your friends cant figure out how awesome it is from your stories, videos and other such material, than they probably wont enjoy it anyways... it would be the same as saying, hey LNS should charge us twice as much for the F-14 because it has two seats...

64Sig.png
Forum RulesMy YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**

1146563203_makefg(6).png.82dab0a01be3a361522f3fff75916ba4.png  80141746_makefg(1).png.6fa028f2fe35222644e87c786da1fabb.png  28661714_makefg(2).png.b3816386a8f83b0cceab6cb43ae2477e.png  389390805_makefg(3).png.bca83a238dd2aaf235ea3ce2873b55bc.png  216757889_makefg(4).png.35cb826069cdae5c1a164a94deaff377.png  1359338181_makefg(5).png.e6135dea01fa097e5d841ee5fb3c2dc5.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The right answer would depend on the module. A gunner seat in the Huey is not the same as the other front seat, and also much different from the back seat in an F-15.

ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1 :thumbup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think the decision about back seat licensing should have anything to do with selfishness, morality, who deserves what or how much blood sweat and tears the developers have shed etc.

 

It's should be about what makes long term business sense.

 

Ultimately, what everyone - developers and community alike - want is a thriving vibrant DCS community. The decision about back seat licensing should be made with that goal in mind.

Windows 7 Enterprise 64bit | i7-4790K@4GHz | 8GB RAM | GTX970 347.52

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
The right answer would depend on the module. A gunner seat in the Huey is not the same as the other front seat, and also much different from the back seat in an F-15.

 

Regardless, they all take time and effort to model and code. So if they feel like that is something they want to develop, then that is their decision, it shouldnt be made out like someone is greedy or whatever for selling a module with more than one seat. The code to be able to have a free seat in a paid module will be work and wont be free to the company doing it...

64Sig.png
Forum RulesMy YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**

1146563203_makefg(6).png.82dab0a01be3a361522f3fff75916ba4.png  80141746_makefg(1).png.6fa028f2fe35222644e87c786da1fabb.png  28661714_makefg(2).png.b3816386a8f83b0cceab6cb43ae2477e.png  389390805_makefg(3).png.bca83a238dd2aaf235ea3ce2873b55bc.png  216757889_makefg(4).png.35cb826069cdae5c1a164a94deaff377.png  1359338181_makefg(5).png.e6135dea01fa097e5d841ee5fb3c2dc5.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The code to be able to have a free seat in a paid module will be work and wont be free to the company doing it...

But that's already the case with single player (unless they split module in two), you get two seats for price of one module. One way to look at it is that you get one seat for free, another that module price accounts for price of both seats.

 

If they split module in two and somebody has two computers he would be able to install pilot seat on one and RIO on another and let play somebody else for "free". There's not much difference between this and allowing somebody to join for free in MP, except later works over longer distance.

Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
But that's already the case with single player (unless they split module in two), you get two seats for price of one module. One way to look at it is that you get one seat for free, another that module price accounts for price of both seats.

 

If they split module in two and somebody has two computers he would be able to install pilot seat on one and RIO on another and let play somebody else for "free". There's not much difference between this and allowing somebody to join for free in MP, except later works over longer distance.

 

I think you are over simplifying what it will take to make a free, fully ASM seat in a paid module. And regardless I wouldnt ask LNS to give away a fully ASM seat for free, if they choose to, great, but its up to them at the end of the day, and I wouldnt be the least upset if they made people pay for the full module to sit in either seat...

64Sig.png
Forum RulesMy YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**

1146563203_makefg(6).png.82dab0a01be3a361522f3fff75916ba4.png  80141746_makefg(1).png.6fa028f2fe35222644e87c786da1fabb.png  28661714_makefg(2).png.b3816386a8f83b0cceab6cb43ae2477e.png  389390805_makefg(3).png.bca83a238dd2aaf235ea3ce2873b55bc.png  216757889_makefg(4).png.35cb826069cdae5c1a164a94deaff377.png  1359338181_makefg(5).png.e6135dea01fa097e5d841ee5fb3c2dc5.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Based on its never been done before, hell, multi-seats isnt even a thing in DCS yet, and now people want to give it away lol....

 

Based on something wasn't done before, you think, that I think something? Sorry I don't follow.

Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...