Putting gun on target after rollout

[WildBillKelsoe]

Probably you've seen youtube vids where real A-10 pilots quickly puts their gun reticle on target after rollout, almost instantaneous clamped to target on reaching wings level. How can one achieve this? And in windy conditions, how as well? Is it a question of practice? Or do they use specific references inside cockpit?

 

PS real pilots do not have static weather :smartass:

 

What I do is I turn at 2-3 G's and as the general rollout picture approaches the top of HUD I start relaxing the pull, but seldom get pipper either below or above intended target because of elevation play or not precisely following a Z-sled, unless target and beyond LOS are both 0 ft MSL, meaning if there are mountains or small houses close to LOS, pipper starts jumping (case where pipper is beyond target) and then I abort and climb out.

 

In the real videos, pilots are pulling G AND rolling at the same time, then pull less G and rollout more, where reticle is clamping target almost instantaneously.

 

I also tend to nudge opposite rudder on last bits of rollout to keep from drifting but that can be tackled with being downwind or upwind, where ladder brackets target. From previous questions, I can tell only stick is used.

 

 

So the manner of using a pot-based stick with me goes like

1- roll and pull , stick (CH) is now diagonal.

2- unroll and center stick.

 

 

I think there is an error with my method because rolling first then pulling G are done separately (I combine them).

[SUBS17]

I tend to just roll out using either the tgt or something nearby as a reference and often have enough time to pick out and fire at more than one tgt in one pass e.g. a convoy of trucks the GUNPAC is awesome it essentially is like using a 30mm sniper rifle. BTW I do not use rudder at all in the roll.:thumbup:

[StrongHarm]

When I'm in a turn I control my vertical aspect by making the wings completely vertical so the nose will drop at the appropriate time.. I'm prone to counterclockwise turns to setup my target and keep an eye on it as long as I can. I'm sure that we suffer from lack of sensory input due to not feeling the Gs. One way that I compensated for this was by creating smoke plumes that look like a balloons at various altitudes near my practice range. It helps me to analyze my turns and descents so I can replicate the best procedure. Once they complete the Oculus Rift we'll have some additional sensory input in the form of depth and movement perception. My DK2 is great for that, but I can't abide by illegible text and readouts so I don't really use it.

 

Check out my gunnery instructional mission, Tank Busting 101.. it has the balloons and other training aids.

[WildBillKelsoe]

Will do. Thanks StrongHarm.

[Ratfink]

I seem to recall reading somewhere, the trick is to get the velocity vector over the target first, then the gun pipper - can anyone confirm?

[3idet]

Regarding the clamping of the thread starter. I asked this often to myself. I watched a lot of in cockpit videos of modern fighter planes like the F-15, F-16 and F-18. My guess is that modern fighter planes have a clamping mechanism. For e.g. watch this video

At 1:55 he pulls the stick to the left like crazy to end the turn. While pulling the stick left he is under a lot of G. You even see how he goes a bit to far to the right after centering but then back to center. The plane... perfectly... 0 degree roll.

 

It's even more impressive when you watch F-16 videos. They have this small stick on the right. Look how tiny movements they have to do and how perfectly the rolls are.

 

Does anybody know something about roll stability mechanisms in modern fighter jets?

Edited June 4, 2015 by 3idet

[SUBS17]

You do not use rudder in the F-16 for a coordinated turn and even the A-10C does not require it either.

[StrongHarm]

How many degrees do you turn your wheel to put your car in a a perfect 90degree turn? I couldn't tell you a numeric figure, but I do it perfectly every time from feel. I think that because the pilot can feel the Gs they can perform more precise turns than us. To compensate you can watch the G meter and base turns upon a consistent bank/G figure. It should take precisely the same amount of time to do a 360 with consistent Bank/G. You will gain intuition to 'slice the pie' evenly every time.

[Eddie]

Is it a question of practice?

 

Yes. Lots of it. But not simply practicing by delivering weapons, but simple flying skills. Weapon deliveries become much easier when you can point the jet wherever you want, whenever you want without consciously thinking about it.

 

Or do they use specific references inside cockpit?

 

And this as well. But again, the first point leads to the second becoming a near unconscious process.

[-Pv-]

"Does anybody know something about roll stability mechanisms in modern fighter jets?"

 

The F-16 in particular is one of the most agile fly by wire fighters ever developed.

 

You cannot expect the A10 to fly like an F-16. Due to its lower speed though, it's good enough. More than anything else, I think it's training your brain and muscles to react to what you see while learning the feel of your controller. The more you customize the controller, the better.

 

-Pv-

[StrongHarm]

While in in the Navy I had a lot of pilot friends let me take the stick. They every one of them said the same thing 'the hardest thing to learn about flying military aircraft is making turns without altering altitude' If you can intuitively make level turns and maintain the same bank/G, you can do precise turns every time. Watch your G-Meter and Flight Path Angle/TVV on your HUD. Practice 'slicing the pie' by making precise 45,90,180,270,360 degree turns in consistent bank/G. This will provide context and intuition necessary to make 18 degree turns. TTPs provide consistency. Here's another mission I created specifically for TTP practice:

 

Live Fire Exercise

[ShuRugal]

one useful thing I have found to do is to drop the boresight circle on the HUD a few mills so I can always see it, and use that as my reference marker for rolling in on a target. This puts my CCIP/Gun-Cross a few degrees below the target, and then you just walk it in, squeeze the PAC to stabilize, and go to town.

[effte]

You need to have a good idea about where your roll axis is relative to your sight. That way, you know the circle the sight will describe when you roll back wings level. Fly to place the lower edge of that circle on target and Bob's yer uncle.

 

Regarding more modern jets, FBW systems (and some earlier non-FBW ones as well) can do all sorts of fun stuff with that roll axis, like always aligning it with the velocity vector so you always roll around your flight path. Makes things more predictable. No such luxury in the A-10 though!

 

Cheers,

Fred

[WildBillKelsoe]

I seem to recall reading somewhere, the trick is to get the velocity vector over the target first, then the gun pipper - can anyone confirm?

 

Unlikely. If that was the case, the pipper dancing around in CCIP would not be used. Maybe they use the 4000 foot slant range cross. I think this is the base where to start.

 

They plan them.

 

They already know the exact parameters, and therefor can determine where the pipper will fall in relation to their flight path angle. On top of all this, they have undoubtedly flown the exact same profile hundreds of time.

 

Out of curiosity, could you provide a video of some strafing attempts to further demonstrate your issue?

 

I shall provide a video soon. I'll post it as a reply to this thread. Please subscribe (to the thread).

 

How many degrees do you turn your wheel to put your car in a a perfect 90degree turn? I couldn't tell you a numeric figure, but I do it perfectly every time from feel. I think that because the pilot can feel the Gs they can perform more precise turns than us. To compensate you can watch the G meter and base turns upon a consistent bank/G figure. It should take precisely the same amount of time to do a 360 with consistent Bank/G. You will gain intuition to 'slice the pie' evenly every time.

 

I fully agree. In my car (2005) I do precise turns that sometimes the wheels are about an inch from the curb and that is in a tight street. Which leads me to VV

 

 

Yes. Lots of it. But not simply practicing by delivering weapons, but simple flying skills. Weapon deliveries become much easier when you can point the jet wherever you want, whenever you want without consciously thinking about it.

 

 

 

And this as well. But again, the first point leads to the second becoming a near unconscious process.

 

So in DCS because we are not practicing enough that is why we can't do it like real pilots. I think depth perception is a factor, no?

 

While in in the Navy I had a lot of pilot friends let me take the stick. They every one of them said the same thing 'the hardest thing to learn about flying military aircraft is making turns without altering altitude' If you can intuitively make level turns and maintain the same bank/G, you can do precise turns every time. Watch your G-Meter and Flight Path Angle/TVV on your HUD. Practice 'slicing the pie' by making precise 45,90,180,270,360 degree turns in consistent bank/G. This will provide context and intuition necessary to make 18 degree turns. TTPs provide consistency. Here's another mission I created specifically for TTP practice:

 

Live Fire Exercise

 

Will definitely try this out. Thanks for sharing.

 

You need to have a good idea about where your roll axis is relative to your sight. That way, you know the circle the sight will describe when you roll back wings level. Fly to place the lower edge of that circle on target and Bob's yer uncle.

 

Regarding more modern jets, FBW systems (and some earlier non-FBW ones as well) can do all sorts of fun stuff with that roll axis, like always aligning it with the velocity vector so you always roll around your flight path. Makes things more predictable. No such luxury in the A-10 though!

 

Cheers,

Fred

 

One thing I learned is to relax the G on final. That way the severity of aiming can be controlled better, no?

[Eddie]

So in DCS because we are not practicing enough that is why we can't do it like real pilots. I think depth perception is a factor, no?

 

Is it a factor? Yes of course it is, just like not having any physical feedback of acceleration. But lack of those things don't prevent you doing it, it just takes practice. Or should I say practice of the appropriate skill set using the proper methodology. If there is no method or reason to your leaning process, you're never going to see the end result.

 

Anyway, I and others have gone over all the techniques and procedures before on more than one occasion, and those posts, documents, and demo videos are all still out there.

[-Pv-]

Many factors contribute to making aircraft control in sims harder than real life and these have been mentioned above, so summary:

1) We cannot feel the Gs.

2) We only have flat world visual as cues with no or little peripheral.

3) Our controllers (no matter how well constructed or featured) are not exactly like the real world aircraft.

4) All the software we use (profiles, sensitivities, etc.) further the complexity of matching hand/eye coordination without other sensory information to precise motion control (or the illusion of it.)

5) Combining twist rudder with stick is not a real world aircraft feature which removes an intuition factor from the sim and adds a control interaction complication.

 

This is a sim. It's not perfect, and for the price and the hardware/software we use to run it, can never be exactly real world. So, we learn tricks and spend more time practicing than real world pilots do to train our brains to the limitations.

-Pv-

[SUBS17]

I wasn't necessary referring to straight and level turns.. :doh:

 

F-16 pilots practically never use the rudder from what I understand and same can be said for a lot of other aircraft types that are FBW. Regarding CCIP/straffing etc if you add wind to the equation then you have to make adjustments if doing manual straffing.

 

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/16v5.pdf

 

page 147 covers in detail some aspects of how straffing is carried out, same methods can be used for the A-10C/A you have two methods High angle straffing and Low angle straffing.

The following steps are a technique used by many Viper pilots to achieve

maximum strafe hits(low angle straffing):

· Roll out with the gun cross initially on the rag. Check dive angle at 10º–15º.

· Note the pipper relationship to the run-in line to determine crosswind.

· Offset gun cross into the wind and note pipper tracking up the run-in line.

· Set power to maintain 420-450 KCAS maximum.

· As the “hat” comes on, ease the pipper to the bottom of the rag.

· As the 2,000’ foul line passes under nose, Track.

· Shoot.

· Track.

· Recover.

 

Note the much higher ingress speed and the 2 bursts as there is no time for anymore from there you have to recover but in an A-10 @kt300 you can in a Low angle Straffing run take out 10 trucks in one pass before recovery as the GUNPAC gives you enough time for each burst because of its stability. High angle straffing is virtually one burst only as straight away you have to recover.:pilotfly:

[-Pv-]

You will eventually teach yourself now to maneuver efficiently.

 

-Pv-

[WildBillKelsoe]

Its very difficult. As one rolls in, he changes layer of altitude. Now unless the winds are in same direction in the 3 layers, one cannot predict the required offset. For example if winds at ground is coming from 050, winds at 6K from 180 and winds at 26K from 270, the calculation is complex. Speaking of which, I happen to stumble upon aviation weather flight path tool. Might be a good practice to say pick weather over Davis Monthan AFB and practice accordingly.. At least its a step towards realism. I hope ED addresses the weather issues and produces a real weather updating option in the mission editor (that may involve raising costs of modules as a contract may be involved with a meteo specialised outfit).

[ronht]

Guys the simple fact is that many things in aircraft in real life are just simpler in execution than what can be represented on a 2 dimensional screen.

 

What ED and the DCS team have provided us in a personal computer simulation for the price is simply amazing but the truth of the matter is, even many of the multi-million dollar full motion simulators the airlines use aren't able to realisticly replicate every aspect of flight.

[WildBillKelsoe]

I think easing the turn in final stages or even nullifying stick pull can produce consistency.

[StrongHarm]

I'm looking forward to the TrackEAR that will manipulate the inner ear so we can 'feel the bird'. (ETA 20 years)

 

Guys the simple fact is that many things in aircraft in real life are just simpler in execution than what can be represented on a 2 dimensional screen.

 

What ED and the DCS team have provided us in a personal computer simulation for the price is simply amazing but the truth of the matter is, even many of the multi-million dollar full motion simulators the airlines use aren't able to realisticly replicate every aspect of flight.

[effte]

The inner ear does you no good. You only spend time learning to ignore it, as it is mainly a source of sensory illusions. Those with a well developed sense of balance get the additional joy of dealing with motion sickness.

 

What you need is TrackBehind, as that's the sensory system at times used to supplement your primary sensors (i e vision and hearing).

 

Simulation controlled pneumatic cushions are in use, and I've seen them in serious hobby level home pits... they work surprisingly well. Speaker elements in the seat is the next best thing I hear.

[PFunk1606688187]

Guys the simple fact is that many things in aircraft in real life are just simpler in execution than what can be represented on a 2 dimensional screen.

 

Doesn't mean you can't develop other ways to compensate for the lack of input. This is no different than how people with disabilities learn to cope with operating real cars and airplanes.

[Pikey]

F-16 shouldnt be in this thread, FBW holds you at the point you put it as soon as you let go of the stick, its something pilots report being hard to adjust to.

 

I don't know myself but if you consider the feeling of driving your car and simulating a car on a computer there is definitely something lost in the simulation.