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Alps A320 Crash


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If someone wants to do something bad, they will do something bad, I think this is more for an issue if the other pilot collapses or has something medical happen...

 

This has been weighing heavily on my mind for some time. Could it be possible that something happened to the copilot while the pilot was on the john?? Heart attack? Seizure? Stroke?

 

Why is everyone so certain it's suicide? A slow agonizing suicide at that, he could have just rolled the plane and crashed nearly instantly.

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This has been weighing heavily on my mind for some time. Could it be possible that something happened to the copilot while the pilot was on the john?? Heart attack? Seizure? Stroke?

 

Why is everyone so certain it's suicide? A slow agonizing suicide at that, he could have just rolled the plane and crashed nearly instantly.

 

They are saying the aircraft descent and door locking all point to the pilot acting deliberately...

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Ok thanks for clearing that up, I thought it was customary for the cockpit doors to be locked at all times during flight, after the events of 9/11.

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Nowhere have I read that the captain used the keypad to alert the other crewmember or to enter the unlock code. Did he forget? Just one of the many simple questions that need to be answered before we put the blame on someone... but no... this is a public lynching by a rabid crowd wanting 'answers'. I don't care if the answer is seemingly obvious. The investigation needs to be done carefully and methodically and thats impossible to do within a day or 2.

 

It is a disgrace how this tragedy is/was handled by _all_ parties.... media, prosecutor, politicians and even a US air-force general (what the heck was _that_ all about?). Everything is in the public domain including voice recordings and medical histories of persons involved... 2(!!) days after the fact.

 

A sad state of affairs...

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Well, I actually consider it a positive thing to have the facts public at a very early state of the investigation. I don't like the conclusions, yet all facts, considered what authorities could already rule out, by the available facts, strongly point to the deliberate actions of the co-pilot.

Currently, nothing points to external force on the co pilot. No hostage situation of his wive, or bankruptcy, or whatever.

The facts point to a co pilot, deliberately locking the cockpit door, preventing the pilot from getting back in. Recording seems to clarify he was breathing and still at the controls (no indications of stroke, heart seizure, or unconsciousness, so far). Considering he was not answering ATC or other aircraft's radio calls, nor does it look like he tried any action to prevent the crash, but seemingly initiated the fatal descent, that leaves pretty few conclusions...

Two days or not.

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The idea of crashing a plane into the ground is, in a twisted way, far less overt than say beating a flight attendant unconscious so that you can carry out your plan. They're basically cowards, they do it alone in the cockpit, silently. Now with a flight attendant there the obvious opportunity when someone goes to the john is removed.

 

That's an interesting point; if that's true and regarding the new information that the copilot was declared unfit for duty, then maybe it was an "opportunity" that presented itself to him in a very bad moment. And there might have been no such opportunity if a flight attendant had stayed in the cockpit.

 

From this perspective, it sounds like a pretty good policy to always have at least two people in the cockpit.

 

Let's try to avert knee-jerk reaction leading to over-complicated systems and/or new obvious security loop-holes while thinking about a single event, how dramatic it may have been; shall we?

 

My point exactly, agreed.

 

It is a disgrace how this tragedy is/was handled by _all_ parties.... media, [...]

 

Media are currently besieging the home of the copilot's parents (according to the images they're broadcasting, showing a house surrounded by busy guys with cameras and microphones). What in the name of information are those hyenas trying to find out there?

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This just popped up on CNN:

Even worse. It seems he deliberately scrapped it and the Doctor wasn't in a position to inform the Company (medical codex).

I guess now people will call for Doctors giving details about medical examination to the employer... :(

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Even worse. It seems he deliberately scrapped it and the Doctor wasn't in a position to inform the Company (medical codex).

I guess now people will call for Doctors giving details about medical examination to the employer... :(

 

Its an interesting discussion for sure, if a doctor declares you unfit to work, and that work is caring for the safety of yourself and another 149 people... what is that doctors responsibility....

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German aviation companies just agreed to instate the "two crew members in cockpitall time" rule... Which I consider a good thing.

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Its an interesting discussion for sure, if a doctor declares you unfit to work, and that work is caring for the safety of yourself and another 149 people... what is that doctors responsibility....

To be the devils advocate here, if we say: "the Doctor should be responsible and inform the employer" where do we set the red line?

150 People in a plane? 40 People in a bus? 10 people on a production line? Or a taxi driver for one passenger?

When is it OK, to break the medical codex and tell the employer he should better fire his employee?

 

No I don't know the answer, just that it is utterly difficult to weigh the consequences.

 

I won't like to be in the position to decide on that.

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This shouldn't be the problem for doctors if I know correctly. Doctor breaks code if he explicitly says what is the problem. But it is his duty to say fit/unfit and breaks no rule. The problem with company not knowing would probably be that doctors opinion was sent through mail and had a lot of desks to exchange when pilot received it sooner.

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In germany the insurance and the employer get the unfit for duty notice through the employee.

After some reformation on the health care system the doctor does not get paid for the postal stamps any more, so he does not send the letter, but delegates that to the patient...

In the end it's all about some money.

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From this perspective, it sounds like a pretty good policy to always have at least two people in the cockpit.

 

Doesn't change much. If you want to crash the plane, it'll take you a couple of second to bring the plane in a fatal dive while killing the engine. Actually, it has been done in the past, even tho the captain was in the cockpit.

 

It's more about reassuring the market than real safety. The thing is, you can't just change aviation because one plane crashed.

 

At that point, adding more rule to the industry, is like just forbid private cars so no-one get killed in car accident. That represent a way more death/year than aircraft crash by suicide.

 

Not necessarily. Many of these suicidal pilots appear to have tried to compartmentalize their behavior. Its obviously an internalized thing. The idea of crashing a plane into the ground is, in a twisted way, far less overt than say beating a flight attendant unconscious so that you can carry out your plan. They're basically cowards, they do it alone in the cockpit, silently. Now with a flight attendant there the obvious opportunity when someone goes to the john is removed.

 

Psychology for this type of abnormal individual is not easily predictable. No doubt there could be those who would never do it if they can't just be alone.

 

You can actually see this kind of mentality in trends in suicide. Many people are simply unwilling to do it a certain way. Guns are too messy and hanging is too painful. Fear of heights, so its all about pills. Nice, easy, drift away. Its not as easy as just saying "well someone wants to die so they'll find a way". The statistics say otherwise.

 

People who do this kind of thing are messed up so normal logic doesn't apply, if such normal logic ever applied to begin with.

 

I would agree with you.... Until I searched for similar cases. Then I discovered that some people don't care if the left seat is taken or not.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990


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Doesn't change much. If you want to crash the plane, it'll take you a couple of second to bring the plane in a fatal dive while killing the engine. Actually, it has been done in the past, even tho the captain was in the cockpit.

 

The point P*Funk had made and I agreed with was that there's a difference between sitting alone in the cockpit, taking deliberate action and sitting in the cockpit, taking deliberate action while someone else is sitting there, potentially having to overpower that other person by applying violence.

 

I don't think anyone said that having at least two persons in the cockpit at all times would be a cure for all scenarios. But from what is known at this time, it might have prevented this catastrophe. And it comes at very little cost (if any), so why not do it?

 

I think it's a good decision by airlines to instantly apply this rule; I also think that it doubles as a "pilot becomes incapacitated and second person in cockpit can call/provide help ASAP" safeguard, so there's a lot of potential benefit with almost no downside I can see (*). I call it a win-win.

 

Of course this would not always defend against the inside-job attacker, but what would anyway?

 

(*) The one obvious downside is that flight attendants are practically guaranteed to be in the cockpit at some time or another, so if they become the attacker, we've now invited someone not qualified to fly the plane into the cockpit. But I guess if a flight attendant wanted to bring down the plane, they'd be in a good position to try it anyway. Still, worth considering the downside vs. the upside.

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Someone mentioned about the flight software a few pages back where the cockpit door can be overridden from the ground. Airlines or NTSB could look at introducing software so that the flight plan must be entered into the flight computer at the start of the flight or downloaded from the airline\ATC before taxi. Any deviation to that course must meet set measures and again even a drop in altitude must be entered into the flight computer and verified by ATC or someone on the ground before the change to the autopilot\flight controls can occur.

 

In many airline air crashes it is due to the pilot not trusting the software or flight computer. However many human mistakes can be learnt from if more trust is put into the software and computers that control the plane. One day passenger air travel will be entirely pilot less, that day can't come soon enough if anything is to be learnt from this and other disasters like 990 etc

 

The pilots ex girlfriend has confirmed this act was pre-planned:

‘One day I will do something that will change the whole system, and then all will know my name and remember it.’

When she heard about the crash of Germanwings Flight 4U9525 on Tuesday, she remembered Lubitz’s menacing prophecy. ‘I never knew what he meant, but now it makes sense,’ she told Bild.

 

Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3015504/I-m-planning-heinous-act-remembered-forever-Killer-pilot-s-ex-girlfriend-says-shared-chilling-prophecy-Alps-crash-woke-nightmares-shouting-going-down.html


Edited by Winfield_Gold
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In many airline air crashes it is due to the pilot not trusting the software or flight computer.

 

Let's be careful (once again) not to introduce solutions for ultra-rare problems.

 

Ultimately, software is programmed by humans. Thus, if software takes control away from humans, it may be just as harmful as "human error", and in fact it will be "human error", it just happens at another position.

 

Even with/Because of/Despite all of today's automation in place, I'd rather trust a trained pilot with my life than I would a computer.

 

The pilots ex girlfriend has confirmed this act was pre-planned:

 

Uh, careful. "Bild" is the worst tabloid we have around here. I don't trust them as far as I can spit and there's tons of proof that they're willing to twist "truth" into headlines any time of the day.

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Uh, careful. "Bild" is the worst tabloid we have around here. I don't trust them as far as I can spit and there's tons of proof that they're willing to twist "truth" into headlines any time of the day.

 

Fair call, your country does print the paper so I don't know how, shall I say "trustworthy" their editors are

 

I'll add, take what I wrote with as a grain of salt. I do however somewhat agree with your response to my previous post regarding flight software. I won't speculate further on that issue

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German BILD is comparable to "Daily Mirror"... There is a saying in Germany, catching that quite well. I'll translate freely: Headline " Man grinded himself through a meat-grinder! BIlD was first to interview the burger!"

Shagrat

 

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The point P*Funk had made and I agreed with was that there's a difference between sitting alone in the cockpit, taking deliberate action and sitting in the cockpit, taking deliberate action while someone else is sitting there, potentially having to overpower that other person by applying violence.

 

I don't think anyone said that having at least two persons in the cockpit at all times would be a cure for all scenarios. But from what is known at this time, it might have prevented this catastrophe. And it comes at very little cost (if any), so why not do it?

 

I think it's a good decision by airlines to instantly apply this rule; I also think that it doubles as a "pilot becomes incapacitated and second person in cockpit can call/provide help ASAP" safeguard, so there's a lot of potential benefit with almost no downside I can see (*). I call it a win-win.

 

Of course this would not always defend against the inside-job attacker, but what would anyway?

 

(*) The one obvious downside is that flight attendants are practically guaranteed to be in the cockpit at some time or another, so if they become the attacker, we've now invited someone not qualified to fly the plane into the cockpit. But I guess if a flight attendant wanted to bring down the plane, they'd be in a good position to try it anyway. Still, worth considering the downside vs. the upside.

 

Exactly my point! The idea is to have somebody with you keeping you from "thinking in the wrong direction".

Even an armed guard in the Cockpit, might not prevent the pilot from forcefully crashing a plane, but simply another human being near and watching you may prevent you from going through with a suicide.

Add the scenario where the co pilot get a stroke/heart attack/whatever and someone is available to call for the other pilot immediately, or at least help the guy say he choked on a potatoes chip?

 

I personally think it's a good idea, that doesn't require a lot of technology, just a little teamwork and common sense.

 

We will never know if it would have prevented the guy from doing what he did, but if there is a chance it can in the future it seems worth it to me...

Shagrat

 

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Having 2 persons in the cockpit (the '2nd' one has to be a cabin crew member obviously) is inconvenient at best... totally impracticable at worst. There have been many times where someone 'has to go' and the colleagues in the back are busy serving your meal or otherwise busy with their duties. Oh well, you guys will have to eat your steak cold then, no problem.

 

Having 2 persons in the cockpit at all times is another ridiculous rule to keep the flying public happy. Never mind the fact that _nothing_ was accomplished safety wise... just another inconvenience to the man or woman working onboard...

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Well, it is required for flights in the US, practice at RyanAir, now standard for a bunch of other airlines... I think they'll manage.

 

I gladly wait for my snack in business class, if necessary...

Shagrat

 

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Its an interesting discussion for sure, if a doctor declares you unfit to work, and that work is caring for the safety of yourself and another 149 people... what is that doctors responsibility....

 

Letting the person's boss know he declared there employee unfit for work and refer to the employee for details.

 

That way privacy and safety are honoured.

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