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P-51 gun spread


Dirkan
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Hello there everyone!

 

I have encountered a problem. I was flying on a mission where there's a lot of trucks at an abandoned airfield. I shot up trucks with my guns and after I only had my inboard guns left the spread got awful. I returned to the airfield and reloaded and all of the sudden all of my guns have a spread the size of my gunsight.

 

What gives? Is gun overheating modelled? Is it a bug?

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Yes, you overheat the guns.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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But no matter how long I fly without shooting after that, the guns still stay with crap accuracy. Is it supposed to be like that or?

 

As the barrels have no effective air stream cooling you have to wait for a while to cool them.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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As the barrels have no effective air stream cooling you have to wait for a while to cool them.

Is the same modeled for 109 and 190?

 

I seem to have the same accuracy with MG131 even though they are cooled the same way and are situated above a hot DB or Jumo engine.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies.

 

My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS.

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A little offtopic but nontheless related comment. Would it be possible in the future that we can set our own convergence? I find standard 300ish meters is too excessive far. I remember back in IL2 days, my 260-250 convergence had much more potency at close range.

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I think I have read elsewhere that long, sustained bursts tend to overheat the barrels and ruin the rifling inside. This would require a barrel replacement. Maybe you can test this by also requesting a repair, as well as your re-arm?

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Can guns be cooled by flying very close to waters?

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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A little offtopic but nontheless related comment. Would it be possible in the future that we can set our own convergence? I find standard 300ish meters is too excessive far. I remember back in IL2 days, my 260-250 convergence had much more potency at close range.

 

You can tune it in a lua file but it's not recommended.

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I did try to ask for a repair. No luck. They didn't want to repair my aircraft as it didn't seem damaged. Damaged my propeller intentionally, then they did do a repair, but the guns still had crap accuracy.

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  • 3 weeks later...
You can tune it in a lua file but it's not recommended.

 

so, no gun convergence settings for the Mustang in this sim? that is strange.. ??:joystick:

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It's not strange at all. Yes, the guns could be physically boresighted by the ground crew. This does not mean the pilot was authorized to have some kind of custom convergence set. Particularly considering that the aircraft would often be expected to be flown by several pilots.

 

Yes, there are set screws and all to physically adjust the boresight of each gun. But there are also adjustments on the carburetor, etc, etc, and the pilot wasn't authorized to have those screwed with, either.

 

Personally, I don't see why you'd want to screw with the settings; the current harmonization is super effective from about 900-1200 feet, which I have found to be almost exactly the distance you settle into when in a turn fight with a Dora (albeit the Kurfurst sometimes forces you to get closer, in around 800-900 to be able to see him under the nose when pulling lead).

 

If you screw with the super-close convergence settings, your guns are all but useless in ground attack, because you have to hold fire until you've practically crashed.

 

Same is true with trying to get a shot on a target pulling away from you: the super-close convergence setting which is marginally more effective at shorter dogfight distances becomes absolutely useless for long-range shots against bombers, or parting shots against faster aircraft pulling away from you.

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It's not strange at all. Yes, the guns could be physically boresighted by the ground crew. This does not mean the pilot was authorized to have some kind of custom convergence set. Particularly considering that the aircraft would often be expected to be flown by several pilots.

 

Yes, there are set screws and all to physically adjust the boresight of each gun. But there are also adjustments on the carburetor, etc, etc, and the pilot wasn't authorized to have those screwed with, either.

 

Personally, I don't see why you'd want to screw with the settings; the current harmonization is super effective from about 900-1200 feet, which I have found to be almost exactly the distance you settle into when in a turn fight with a Dora (albeit the Kurfurst sometimes forces you to get closer, in around 800-900 to be able to see him under the nose when pulling lead).

 

If you screw with the super-close convergence settings, your guns are all but useless in ground attack, because you have to hold fire until you've practically crashed.

 

Same is true with trying to get a shot on a target pulling away from you: the super-close convergence setting which is marginally more effective at shorter dogfight distances becomes absolutely useless for long-range shots against bombers, or parting shots against faster aircraft pulling away from you.

I have a problem with 1100ft (which is 335m) range. This is realy a convergence that I hate.

 

I always flew with 250m and I can't emphasize more how important that convergence was for me as I flew with it since I was 16 and I am 24 now. Always. For any sim.

 

I can't stress how awkward it is for me to shoot so far. It is a completely different trajectory and lead ughhh...

 

Also .50cal bullets power is connected to their kinetic energy. The closer you are, the better your kinetic energy, the more hitting power the bullet has.

 

Now our gun sights are capable of tracking targets even at 600ft which is 182m That is way closer. So I can't see why the convergence has to be set so far.

 

I've heard that pilots asked their crew chiefs to make adjustments and yeah I heard that harmonization was standarised later for K-14... but I don't think anyone changed their habbits and probably aces sticked to their own prefered convergence.

 

Can I get used to it? If I have to I will... but it feels realy confusing to shoot so far at such little targets like the Bf109 or Fw190.

 

 

I realy hope we will get an option to change our convergence in the future :(


Edited by Solty

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies.

 

My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS.

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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA

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I have seen this discussion several times now, and I've never seen either side support their position with hard evidence.

 

Those who believe that pilots did set custom convergence/harmonization: which military(s), which aircraft? Got sources?

 

Those who believe that pilots/{ground crews} were not authorized to set convergence/harmonization: no militaries allowed this, at any point in the war? Got sources?

 

So far, all I've seen in these discussions is "yes they did" and "no they didn't," but zero evidence for either position. Come on, folks, this is the DCS forum, not the bananaforum. I expect better.

 

: )


Edited by Echo38
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I have seen this discussion several times now, and I've never seen either side support their position with hard evidence.

 

Those who believe that pilots did set custom convergence/harmonization: which military(s), which aircraft? Got sources?

 

Those who believe that pilots/{ground crews} were not authorized to set convergence/harmonization: no militaries allowed this, at any point in the war? Got sources?

 

So far, all I've seen in these discussions is "yes they did" and "no they didn't," but zero evidence for either position. Come on, folks, this is the DCS forum, not the bananaforum. I expect better.

 

: )

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=MEylhjM_3aUC&pg=PA358&lpg=PA358&dq=adjusting+convergence+in+P-51&source=bl&ots=MFff_qsFSn&sig=hxCo9TZxBV_pitRVnzLoH06A7bU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EzA0VdvvHrDPsQS7roD4DA&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=adjusting%20convergence%20in%20P-51&f=false

 

 

PAGE 358: "Armorers then put small periscopes in the breech of each gun to adjust the gun mounts until each gun was properly aligned with the target."

 

The gun mounts were adjustable. Glad this issue is settled. :)

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I have seen this discussion several times now, and I've never seen either side support their position with hard evidence.

 

Those who believe that pilots did set custom convergence/harmonization: which military(s), which aircraft? Got sources?

 

Those who believe that pilots/{ground crews} were not authorized to set convergence/harmonization: no militaries allowed this, at any point in the war? Got sources?

 

So far, all I've seen in these discussions is "yes they did" and "no they didn't," but zero evidence for either position. Come on, folks, this is the DCS forum, not the bananaforum. I expect better.

 

: )

https://books.google.pl/books?id=MEylhjM_3aUC&pg=PA358&lpg=PA358&dq=adjusting+convergence+in+P-51&source=bl&ots=MFff_qsFSn&sig=hxCo9TZxBV_pitRVnzLoH06A7bU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EzA0VdvvHrDPsQS7roD4DA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=adjusting%20convergence%20in%20P-51&f=false

 

http://books.google.pl/books?id=e_MVDkm24D0C&pg=PA102&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=250%20yards&f=false

 

 

So it was not only possible to make those guns shoot into one point, but also make them shoot at different points.

 

Let me quote:

 

"There, six machine guns were boresighted to meet the pilot's preference for conversion point." Page 357. from the book "I was a P-51 fighter pilot in WW2..."

 

"He had the inboard .50s aimed to converge at 200 yards, the middle guns at 250 yards

and outboards to 300 yards" Page 102. Ben Drew: Katzenjammer

 

 

EDIT: Another quote added for more certainty.


Edited by Solty

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies.

 

My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS.

My channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA

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Note that according to the instructions on the gun-bay doors, the P-51D's guns were sighted in for 250 or 300 yards (228.6 or 274.3 m); these seem to be the normal harmonisation distances, while 335 metres (366.3 yards) doesn't seem to have been standard. I can't see where the latter figure came from, because all of the P-51 manuals I have show 250 or 300 yards, even with the K-14 gyro sight

 

(P-51D-5 E & M Manual March 1944 - pre K-14))

North%20American%20P-51D%20EampM%20Manual%20June%201944334_zpstt9gjsnp.jpg

 

(P-51D-5 thru -25 and K-1 thru 15; addition of K-14 sight on bay door instruction plate)

North%20American%20P-51D%20amp%20K%20Erection%20and%20Maintenance%20Manual_zpskr094goq.jpg

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https://books.google.pl/books?id=MEylhjM_3aUC&pg=PA358&lpg=PA358&dq=adjusting+convergence+in+P-51&source=bl&ots=MFff_qsFSn&sig=hxCo9TZxBV_pitRVnzLoH06A7bU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EzA0VdvvHrDPsQS7roD4DA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=adjusting%20convergence%20in%20P-51&f=false

 

http://books.google.pl/books?id=e_MVDkm24D0C&pg=PA102&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=250%20yards&f=false

 

 

So it was not only possible to make those guns shoot into one point, but also make them shoot at different points.

 

Let me quote:

 

"There, six machine guns were boresighted to meet the pilot's preference for conversion point." Page 357. from the book "I was a P-51 fighter pilot in WW2..."

 

"He had the inboard .50s aimed to converge at 200 yards, the middle guns at 250 yards

and outboards to 300 yards" Page 102. Ben Drew: Katzenjammer

 

 

EDIT: Another quote added for more certainty.

 

And? Which P-51? With gyro sight?

 

Also, I don't take every quote at face value, even if from a veteran; they can (and often do) remember incorrectly. Just today I was reading a memoir of a platoon leader where he very pointedly claims that the US tank destroyers (in Normandy) were so handy because they had 90mm guns. You know, the 90mm guns that weren't actually introduced until September, way WAY after the Cobra breakout.

 

You may see earlier where I pointed out that the guns could in fact (and needed to) be adjusted with set screws and all. But, again, that was done by the ground crew, and the standard procedure (for K14-equipped Mustangs, at least) was for a harmonization pattern prescribed by the USAAF

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Note that according to the instructions on the gun-bay doors, the P-51D's guns were sighted in for 250 or 300 yards (228.6 or 274.3 m); these seem to be the normal harmonisation distances, while 335 metres (366.3 yards) doesn't seem to have been standard. I can't see where the latter figure came from, because all of the P-51 manuals I have show 250 or 300 yards, even with the K-14 gyro sight

 

Yeah, I don't know where they got that, either. I just pointed out that the standard harmonization is particularly effective in a range band from 900-1200 feet, not that it's the precise harmonization point. ...Though I would have sworn that the smallest pattern on the harmonization chart was around 1000 feet. Either way, the P-51 with K14 wasn't converged at any range; it was designed for an optimal pattern in a roughly circular/hexagonal pattern at around 900-1100 feet.


Edited by OutOnTheOP
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And? Which P-51? With gyro sight?

 

Also, I don't take every quote at face value, even if from a veteran; they can (and often do) remember incorrectly. Just today I was reading a memoir of a platoon leader where he very pointedly claims that the US tank destroyers (in Normandy) were so handy because they had 90mm guns. You know, the 90mm guns that weren't actually introduced until September, way WAY after the Cobra breakout.

 

You may see earlier where I pointed out that the guns could in fact (and needed to) be adjusted with set screws and all. But, again, that was done by the ground crew, and the standard procedure (for K14-equipped Mustangs, at least) was for a harmonization pattern prescribed by the USAAF

Yeah, I don't know where they got that, either. I just pointed out that the standard harmonization is particularly effective in a range band from 900-1200 feet, not that it's the precise harmonization point. ...Though I would have sworn that the smallest pattern on the harmonization chart was around 1000 feet. Either way, the P-51 with K14 wasn't converged at any range; it was designed for an optimal pattern in a roughly circular/hexagonal pattern at around 900-1100 feet.

 

You are wrong.

If you would read a single chapter from the link I have sent you would know that K-14 gunsight was on the plane and they were adjusting it too.:book:

 

"The secret K-14 gunsight was calibrated by enlisted men trained in that exact skill."Page 358. from the book "I was a P-51 fighter pilot in WW2..."


Edited by Solty

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies.

 

My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS.

My channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA

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You are wrong.

If you would read a single chapter from the link I have sent you would know that K-14 gunsight was on the plane and they were adjusting it too.:book:

 

"The secret K-14 gunsight was calibrated by enlisted men trained in that exact skill."Page 358. from the book "I was a P-51 fighter pilot in WW2..."

 

Calibrating the K14 has f***-all to do with setting harmonization of the guns. Calibrating the K14 would have to do with setting the current strength or magnets so the gyro displaced the proper angle at the proper sideforces.

 

And again, I refer to a written-by-combat-vet book that just claimed the 90mm gun tank destroyers were rampaging through the panzer corps in June-July 1944. Demonstrably false. Not all quotes can be taken at face value; they may be intentionally or unintentionally incorrect.

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Calibrating the K14 has f***-all to do with setting harmonization of the guns. Calibrating the K14 would have to do with setting the current strength or magnets so the gyro displaced the proper angle at the proper sideforces.

 

And again, I refer to a written-by-combat-vet book that just claimed the 90mm gun tank destroyers were rampaging through the panzer corps in June-July 1944. Demonstrably false. Not all quotes can be taken at face value; they may be intentionally or unintentionally incorrect.

 

Your are right that the sight itself has nothing to do with it, funny how your brought that up in your first post against solty....

 

Your point about veteran anecdotes is quite silly. It is one thing to mis-remember the exact caliber of a gun, and another thing entirely to mis-remember that your aircraft gun convergence was adjustable. People forget numbers and dates etc. It is extremely unlikely that he described IN DETAIL the procedure for doing the adjustments, and that he was able to have them done custom.

 

 

Look at just before 25 seconds, you can see the adjustments in the mount.......

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