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Ka-52 Navy version with ability to launch..


Kaktus29
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http://www.military-informant.com/airforce/8652-palubnye-vertolety-ka-52k-resheno-osnastit-protivokorabelnymi-raketami.html

 

Use google translate for rough understanding but in general with the new radar Ka-52 can launch the new anti-ship missiles that Mig-29, Su-30 can launch..

 

so, ability to detect naval targets at distance up to 200 km and launch 200 range missiles at them..

 

also this makes it clear choppers don't have problems firing such missiles as they did have problems locating targets and feeding info to missile. once this is done, no problem exist for implementing "fire process" of such a heavy missile on helis.. well at least Russian ones..

 

Don't know how good Apache could carry the harpoon or how much space to mount such a big radar needed to launch harpoons..

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http://www.military-informant.com/airforce/8652-palubnye-vertolety-ka-52k-resheno-osnastit-protivokorabelnymi-raketami.html

 

Use google translate for rough understanding but in general with the new radar Ka-52 can launch the new anti-ship missiles that Mig-29, Su-30 can launch..

 

.so, ability to detect naval targets at distance up to 200 km and launch 200 range missiles at them..

 

..also this makes it clear choppers don't have problems firing such missiles as they did have problems locating targets and feeding info to missile. once this is done, no problem exist for implementing "fire process" of such a heavy missile on helis.. well at least Russian ones..

 

The article mentions two types of anti-ship missiles - the Kh-31A and Kh-35.

 

The Kh-31A requires the carrying platform to be travelling at at least 600 km/h for launch and the range of the missile against a destroyer type of target is between 50 to 70 km when launched at an altitude of 10 or 15 km respectively.

 

A helicopter cannot meet either of those launch conditions.

 

There is a version of the Kh-35 that can be launched from helicopters, but its not the same as the one used by fixed wing tactical aircraft. The helicopter variant is similar to the one for ships/coastal installations with an extra booster section and is much heavier than the aircraft variant(620 kg vs. 520 kg).

JJ

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I don't read Russian, so I'm just going on Google translate, but it looks like it just says "anti-ship missiles like the X-31 and X-35", and doesn't mention a variant.

 

 

 

Though the initial A version had a "range of the missile against a destroyer type of target is between 50 to 70 km when launched at an altitude of 10 or 15 km respectively", Passive Anti Radar & later versions have a greater range.

 

The manufacturers say (http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/511/565/) the Kh-31PD (current serial production anti-radar version) has a range of up to 250km:

(carrier flight parameters H=15km, M=1,5), km 180 to 250

 

and that the launch altitude has to be between "0,1km to 15km" - so down to 100m

 

The launch speed of "Mach 0,65 to 1,5" does seem to make a helicopter launch unlikely :), but, as you say - a helicopter launched version of the Kh-35 with a larger booster exists, perhaps the same thing has been done to a non-serial Kh-31 ...

 

So a Kh-31 launch seems less likely, but a Kh-35 launch seems quite possible..

 

For that missile, the manufacturers say the Kh-35UE has a range "to 260km" (probably not from a 100m launch), and can be launched by a helicopter down to 100m altitude, so the numbers in the article don't look that bad..

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/512/563/

 

 

 

Interesting they say that the R-27R has a range of 50km-60km against a fighter sized target, and the R-27ER has a range of 60-62km against a fighter sized target (and 100km(90) against 'some other targets' ).


Edited by Weta43

Cheers.

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I don't read Russian, so I'm just going on Google translate, but it looks like it just says "anti-ship missiles like the X-31 and X-35", and doesn't mention a variant.

Perhaps not, but I was responding to:

"..with the new radar Ka-52 can launch the new anti-ship missiles that Mig-29, Su-30 can launch.."

Which it can't :) . It cannot launch any variant of the Kh-31 due to the required launch conditions(carrier platform travelling at 600 - 1250 km/h) and not the same variant of Kh-35 either(although I guess that could be considered "nitpicking").

 

Though the initial A version had a "range of the missile against a destroyer type of target is between 50 to 70 km when launched at an altitude of 10 or 15 km respectively", Passive Anti Radar & later versions have a greater range.

 

The manufacturers say (http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/511/565/) the Kh-31PD (current serial production anti-radar version) has a range of up to 250km:

(carrier flight parameters H=15km, M=1,5), km 180 to 250

 

Point taken about the updated versions, but the article talked about anti-ship missiles, so I don't really understand why you refer to a new version of the anti-radar variant(?) . The new version of the anti-ship variant(Kh-31AD) is quoted with a much shorter range(120 - 160 km) and again this is for optimal launch conditions - i.e. carrier platform travelling at Mach 1.5 and at altitude of 15 km, which needless to say is impossible for a helicopter.

 

..and that the launch altitude has to be between "0,1km to 15km" - so down to 100m

 

Yes but I never said that a Kh-31 couldn't be launched below 10-15 km altitude - the point was to compare difference in obtainable range at those altitudes - i.e. dropping from 70 km to 50 when going from 15km down to 10 km altitude, which in turn should say something about the kind of range you could expect when launched from a helicopter.....IIRC the sevice ceiling for the Ka-52 is something like 5 km :) .

 

The launch speed of "Mach 0,65 to 1,5" does seem to make a helicopter launch unlikely :)

 

It makes launch from a Su-25TM unlikely(impractical at least) and launch from a helicopter impossible :)

 

...but, as you say - a helicopter launched version of the Kh-35 with a larger booster exists, perhaps the same thing has been done to a non-serial Kh-31 ...

 

Well the Kh-31 is a supersonic missile with ramjet sustainer and built-in rocket booster, which when expended, becomes the combustion chamber for the ramjet sustainer engine(similar in concept to the Moskit). With the integrated nature of the Kh-31's engine design, it would require a complete re-design of the weapon.

 

The Kh-35 is a subsonic missile with a turbojet sustainer engine - the booster is an extra separate section.

 

So a Kh-31 launch seems less likely, but a Kh-35 launch seems quite possible..

 

Again Kh-31....no :D .

 

Kh-35 definately possible, but as mentioned earlier its not the same version as the one used by tactical aircraft, because even this subsonic weapon requires extra boost to propel it to operational speed when launched from a slow moving platform.

 

For that missile, the manufacturers say the Kh-35UE has a range "to 260km" (probably not from a 100m launch), and can be launched by a helicopter down to 100m altitude, so the numbers in the article don't look that bad..

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/512/563/

 

While technically possible, it nevertheless raises questions about the practicality of it - both in terms of weight penalty as well as realistic engagement range. I think this is just another example of a manufacturer promoting a piece of kit(in this case a radar) without much consideration as to whether the suggested application makes much operational sense - i.e. along the lines of a similar proposal for the Su-25(radar/radar guided ASMs).

 

Interesting they say that the R-27R has a range of 50km-60km against a fighter sized target, and the R-27ER has a range of 60-62km against a fighter sized target (and 100km(90) against 'some other targets' ).

 

Yes this has been discussed previously - my take on this is that the R-27ER engine's extra sustainer stage only provide enough thrust to compensate for drag in level flight - i.e. only provide significant extra range over the R-27R when launched against non-manouvering targets(such as bombers and transports) at high altitude.

JJ

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There are photos of the Kh-35(V variant, not to be mistaken by the Vietnamese variants) on Ka-27s, though few and far between.

 

Seems like the idea is old by the age of them. The Kh-31 however way too far fetched, and few sources have mentioned anything related to it. You can find a fair amount of info on the Kh-35/Ka-52K combo, and it looks real enough to me.

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There are photos of the Kh-35(V variant, not to be mistaken by the Vietnamese variants) on Ka-27s, though few and far between.

 

Seems like the idea is old by the age of them. The Kh-31 however way too far fetched, and few sources have mentioned anything related to it. You can find a fair amount of info on the Kh-35/Ka-52K combo, and it looks real enough to me.

 

Yes the helicopter compatible variant of the Kh-35 is real enough and no the idea is not new, but the question is how practical/useful a Ka-52/Kh-35 combo would be.

 

The Ka-52K(naval variant) was procured mainly for the Mistral class assault ships - i.e. as a CAS asset for landing operations and although it could perhaps come in handy for them to have the ability to help fend off enemy surface threats with Kh-35s, I think the money could be better spend on more suitable assets for this sort of thing.....e.g. upgrading the Su-33(radar) to deploy the missile instead :) .

JJ

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Because they're SEAD weapons, and everything from a Frigate up is essentially a floating SAM site.

 

Ok but the article concerned a proposal for installing a radar on the Ka-52 enabling it to deploy radar guided anti-ship missiles - you don't need that for ARMs, since they don't use radar for target acquisition/in-flight control :)

 

BTW there is IMO something fishy about the quoted engagement ranges for the Kh-31AD and Kh-31PD respectively - I mean the two missiles are identical except for the homing heads, so where does the range difference come from? :)

JJ

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As far as I know the MiG-29K already packs that capability. I don't know how feasible that is though because I don't think you will have the Kuznetsov around the Mistrals too often (considering that the MoD offered the Georgian War as an example of conflict where they would have played a part).

 

The Mistral itself should have a strong defense suite already, but the Kh-35 capability seems like a way to strike a threat before it gets close enough to be a problem rather than an offensive asset. Putting them on the Ka-52 instead of the Ka-27 is probably due to the former's better defense equipment I suppose. Don't Seahawks have the Penguin for this sort of duty as well?

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As far as I know the MiG-29K already packs that capability.

 

It does, but with the recent news that the Su-33s will be upgraded and continiue in service for another 10+ years, it would seem a good idea to give them this capability too - especially if the upgrade involves the radar anyway :) .

 

I don't know how feasible that is though because I don't think you will have the Kuznetsov around the Mistrals too often (considering that the MoD offered the Georgian War as an example of conflict where they would have played a part).

 

Maybe not directly in connection with the Mistrals - by "money better spent" I was thinking more in general terms :) .

 

The Mistral itself should have a strong defense suite already, but the Kh-35 capability seems like a way to strike a threat before it gets close enough to be a problem rather than an offensive asset. Putting them on the Ka-52 instead of the Ka-27 is probably due to the former's better defense equipment I suppose.

 

Yes but Russian warships aren't exactly known to be short of anti-ship capability ;) and although I would tend to agree that Mistrals might not be operated in places where they could rely on support from the Kuznetsov airwing, I would find it strange if a single frigate couldn't be allocated for escort......even a couple of small missile boats like the Molniya class pack more anti-ship punch than an entire squadron of Ka-52s with Kh-35s would :D

 

Don't Seahawks have the Penguin for this sort of duty as well?

 

AFAIK some exported Seahawks did indeed deploy Penguin missiles, but its an old weapon thats being phased out.

JJ

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The article mentions two types of anti-ship missiles - the Kh-31A and Kh-35.

 

The Kh-31A requires the carrying platform to be travelling at at least 600 km/h for launch and the range of the missile against a destroyer type of target is between 50 to 70 km when launched at an altitude of 10 or 15 km respectively.

 

sooo... it carries an analogue to the Penguin, which the SH-60 Seahawk (the ACTUAL maritime helicopter used by the US, not the Apache) carries.

 

Move along, nothing to see here.

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He's saying that because the US can field the AGM-119 on the SH-60, there's no capability beyond what already exists in the US armed forces, so there's nothing newsworthy about the original post...

 

it carries an analogue to the Penguin

 

I guess the Kh-35 is an analogue of the Penguin - in the way a way a Porche 911 is an analogue to the Carmen Ghia VW.

 

They're the same if you ignore performance, and only concentrate on the fact they're both rear engined and designed to carry passengers...


Edited by Weta43

Cheers.

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He's saying that because the US can field the AGM-119 on the SH-60, there's no capability beyond what already exists in the US armed forces, so there's nothing newsworthy about the original post...

 

Oh.....well newsworthy or not, a US analogue to a Ka-52K with Kh-35s would be something like a navalised Apache armed with Harpoons :) .

JJ

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