Multiplayer dogfight tips?

[Nascar]

Sabre aces, have any dogfight tips (do and don't) for multiplayer vs Mig 15?

 

Info on best turn speeds, use of airbrakes?

 

How do you guys fight the Mig 15 at low altitude? If I get into a defensive fight at low altitude I am usually screwed, unless I can force them to lose sight.

[Zeke]

In my testing with the 39th guys we found you cannot turn with the MiG 15, you have to use your speed advantage. When you start to get behind in a turn, run like hell and reengage later when the MiG does not have the advantage anymore. Also, unless you have an energy advantage do not climb with the MiG.

 

Basically turning and burning with the MiG will get you killed.

[Zeke]

Also just wanted to share this. I remember reading something a couple of days ago from the book 'Boyd; The Fighter Pilot Who Changed The Art of War' (highly recommended!!).

 

At the end of Chapter 17 the author writes on Boyd pondering on how the heck the Sabre had a 10-1 kill ratio over the MiG. On his EM Charts which he developed the MiG had the advantage in almost all aspects. What he decided was that the because the Sabre had better vision, and was easier to fly it gave the Sabre pilots a big advantage. The Sabre had full hydraulic controls were the MiG did not. A Sabre pilot could pull more manuvers quicker and with less stress making it a quicker fighter.

 

In our sim I don't think it's modeled so the MiG will have an advantage.

[Nooch]

I've read that the 10-1 kill ratio was more a propaganda thing than real numbers and that the real ratio was close to 2-1 (but yeah still shows some superiority of the F-86).

 

Here is the page I've read http://www.pogo.org/blog/2013/09/The-Myth-of-American-Air-Superiority.html

Edited April 4, 2015 by Nooch

[Zeke]

yea, that article doesn't say a whole lot does it. Give me facts and figures, something to bite into.

[Nascar]

Thanks Zeke, that has been my experience. The Sabre only has the advantage of running at alt if you get into trouble. When you start turning with him low you are mostly done. Axe, I think the 2 to 1 ratio was vs Russian pilots. I don't believe the Mig 15 had as big of an advantage as it does in the sim or I just suck at dogfighting.

[Invisibull]

It just takes practice, Nascar.

 

As a Sabre pilot, you can't go wrong if you stay fast and energy fight. You can leave the fight whenever you'd like and your jet is ridiculously more maneuverable than the 15 once you get above .85 Mach.

 

As Zeke says above, if you start turning with a MiG and get slow, a good MiG pilot will eat your lunch for you. If you can get a kill shot in the first couple of turns, fine, go for it, just don't hang around longer than that against someone who knows what they're doing.

 

As far as the 10-1 ratio, I wouldn't put a great deal of stock in it. If you look at the stats for Soviet-piloted '15s (so-called Honchos) you'll find that the kill ratio was far more equitable. Chinese and North Korean pilots were far less experienced than the Americans so you really can't use their lack of experience to determine how much better or worse the MiGs were.

[Nascar]

Thanks Bull, what technique do you use when you are on his 6 and gaining rapidly? Is it best to use the airbrake and keep the throttle spooled up or move the throttle and keep the airbrake in?

[Invisibull]

Thanks Bull, what technique do you use when you are on his 6 and gaining rapidly? Is it best to use the airbrake and keep the throttle spooled up or move the throttle and keep the airbrake in?

 

YW, Nascar.

 

If I'm in a turn and my overtake is substantial, I'll climb up into a high Yo-Yo and then come back down on top of him once the moment is right. If the overtake is minimal, I'll pop the brakes momentarily. Only in rare cases will i reduce power because once you do you'd better get him quick or he's going to get away.

 

Once you put in some time practicing, everything I'm saying now is going to become really obvious. :)

 

Have fun

 

Bull

[Zeke]

Still with all that said, I think the best way to work is with teams and good SA.

[SgtPappy]

Thanks Zeke, that has been my experience. The Sabre only has the advantage of running at alt if you get into trouble. When you start turning with him low you are mostly done. Axe, I think the 2 to 1 ratio was vs Russian pilots. I don't believe the Mig 15 had as big of an advantage as it does in the sim or I just suck at dogfighting.

 

I can't cite the sources now, but I believe the kill ratio against all MiG-15's was around 3.5:1 or 2:1. Against just Russian pilots, I believe a non-profit historical research organization called RAND found that the USA:USSR kill ratio was in favor of the Americans at 1.3:1. This suggests that the American and Soviet pilots were equal.

 

To add to the discussion, something that you have to focus on with the Sabre is nose-low maneuvers whenever possible as well as lag pursuit. I cannot stress enough that many Sabre pilots end up getting outturned because they are not using their altitude to turn in a spiral dive or are just blowing all their speed for a first shot. Lag pursuit is key if you want to save energy!

 

If you focus on following a MiG rather than leading it, then you can get a shot before you get too slow. I feel the Sabre has all the tools to deal with a MiG, but it's harder to fly successfully because it's so tempting to get slow and just turn. I find that a Sabre can run away easily, but I have managed to catch all but one MiG in a climb by just accelerating near level flight and pulling up to get behind a climbing/escaping MiG.

[Zeke]

I've been doing just that since we talked about it on TS. I haven't lost energy against the MiG since. Just have to be patient. Good advise.

[wolf_288]

climbing mig-15 ?

 

what can I do with a climbing Mig-15 in a dogfight ?:huh:

[msalama]

what can I do with a climbing Mig-15 in a dogfight ?:huh:

See the 2nd post above yours:

 

but I have managed to catch all but one MiG in a climb by just accelerating near level flight and pulling up to get behind a climbing/escaping MiG.

[fastfreddie]

I've haven't had alot of dogfights in the Mig but it doesn't respond well in higher machs and I've learned to just avoid dives with the F-86 or reduce throttle when entering a dive. I'm still learning to fly the Mig but its dive brakes seem to be quite lacking in performance compared with the Sabre.

[Zaz0]

I read Mig-15 didn't have g-suit, this isn't simulated and it will be beneficious for Sabre pilots...

 

A real spanish F-18 pilot said to me that actuals g-suits reduce 1G the g-load for the pilot, maybe at '50s would be less, but sure it would be an advantage too.

 

The Migs didn't have a good cockpit ambient management and it made to frozen the cabin when perform fast descents loosing Sabre targets, this isn't simulated.

[SUBS17]

A good adversary to practice with is the Su25 as I find AI Mig15s are a tricky tgt for practice so for those who are struggling vs Mig15 try the AI SU25 out as an adversary as it is close in some aspects to the F-86 but less in some areas so its easy to out maneuver for practice.

[ESAc_matador]

Also just wanted to share this. I remember reading something a couple of days ago from the book 'Boyd; The Fighter Pilot Who Changed The Art of War' (highly recommended!!).

 

At the end of Chapter 17 the author writes on Boyd pondering on how the heck the Sabre had a 10-1 kill ratio over the MiG. On his EM Charts which he developed the MiG had the advantage in almost all aspects. What he decided was that the because the Sabre had better vision, and was easier to fly it gave the Sabre pilots a big advantage. The Sabre had full hydraulic controls were the MiG did not. A Sabre pilot could pull more manuvers quicker and with less stress making it a quicker fighter.

 

In our sim I don't think it's modeled so the MiG will have an advantage.

 

 

What i understood from the boyds book is that the Sabre has better Roll rate not turning rate, so to avoid being shot down, chanching your bank 45 60 degrees evrey 5 10 seconds helps a lot. The roll rate of the mig is slower it cannot get a firing solution. If you are high, dive and go to match 0.9. NeVer climb,

[SgtPappy]

What i understood from the boyds book is that the Sabre has better Roll rate not turning rate, so to avoid being shot down, chanching your bank 45 60 degrees evrey 5 10 seconds helps a lot. The roll rate of the mig is slower it cannot get a firing solution. If you are high, dive and go to match 0.9. NeVer climb,

 

 

The following image is the energy diagrams of the MiG-15 and the F-86F hard wing from Boyd's book.

 

You can easily see that at maximum turn rate, the Sabre is superior by almost 4 deg./s. That's a huge amount but its lower thrust to weight ratio is detrimental to sustained turning. If you're in a Sabre and you can pull only 4G or less, the MiG gains the advantage because it can sustain 4G quite easily while the Sabre will slow down and lose turn rate.

 

This is why nose low turns and lag pursuit is necessary for the Sabre pilot, so that it can take advantage of its higher turn rate each time it speeds up/stays fast.

 

[King_Hrothgar]

As the two aircraft are modeled in game, I find them dead even. The MiG-15 will out accelerate and out climb the Sabre easily. The Sabre can flat out run and out dive it just as easily thanks to a higher critical mach number. Both are capable of running into issues with transonic flight in level flight at any typical multiplayer altitude (0 to 10km). When it comes to turn fighting, I find the two equal but there is a catch.

 

The catch is the MiG-15 is easy to fly at its limits. It has gentle stall characteristics and lots of warning. The F-86 is the opposite. It has little warning and will quickly drop a wing. Any hesitation on recovery is likely to result in a tumble. Although it is still fairly easy to recover, the energy and position lost in the process will instantly reverse the situation from attacking the enemy to defending. Given how even the aircraft are, it is very difficult to regain the initiative. At this point the best course of action is to dive to the deck (assuming you aren't already there) and power away. As long as you are flying above mach 0.9, the MiG-15 cannot touch you except in a head on attack.

 

Another note on turn fighting is flaps. I've noticed many DCS players shun the use of combat flaps in combat. Don't fall into that trap. If you are flying slow enough to use them, use them. Use everything you have to your advantage. These two planes are perfectly matched in an asymmetric manner. If you do not fly your plane better than the other guy flies his, he will get you. And don't forget, mach 0.9 and above is your get out of jail free card. If you've lost position, dive away.

 

It helps to also understand the perspective of the MiG driver, so below are tactics for them.

 

In the MiG-15, use your thrust and gentle handling to your advantage. Most DCS pilots are accustomed to missile jousting with FC3 planes, not WW2 style dogfighting. This likely applies to you too. The MiG-15 is a plane you can toss around without a care in the world much like an F-15 or Su-27. The Sabre can be tossed around just as hard, but only by a skilled pilot. The average pilot will go tumbling out of the sky if they try to follow you. It's also important to keep an eye on your speed. Anything above mach 0.8 is going to seriously harm your agility, so keep the speeds below that if you can.

 

Given that sabres can dive away at will, it's best to force a descending, low speed turn fight if you can. This removes their ability to quickly dive away. They can still flat out run you, but if you're right on top of them, they likely won't be able to get away in time. If the sabre gains the upper hand on you, use your acceleration and climb rate to throw them off. If it's a low speed fight, throw them off a firing position however you can and then power away in a climb. They can't follow but as with the sabre's top speed powering away, you do need a little room. If they are breathing down your neck, you can't get away in time.

 

If they are breathing down your neck, you do have an option to force an overshoot. The Sabre stalls at a much higher speed than the MiG-15, dumping power, popping out the airbrakes and flaps while pulling up is a sure fire way to have them either over shoot, tumble out of the sky or run into you. Hopefully the last doesn't happen but that depends on them mostly. A snap roll at the last moment might get you out of the way if it looks like they are going that route. But it does leave a bit to chance. Once they are off, use your acceleration to get some distance and then climb away.