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Some opinion about maneuverability of Bf109K-4


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And drag?? Nobody think about it?? I read a lot about of Cl in this thread but nobody has said that induced drag also increase with the Cl increase... so the drag is the price we pay for increase the lift. Anyone has a lift-drag curve? And the final question is (taking in to account all forces), how much is the benefit provided by the slats??


Edited by Angel101
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And drag?? Nobody think about it?? I read a lot about of Cl in this thread but nobody has said that induced drag also increase with the Cl increase... so the drag is the price we pay for increase the lift. Anyone has a lift-drag curve? And the final question is (taking in to account all forces), how much is the benefit provided by the slats??

 

That is already explained above in my others post (I quote myself)

 

....

When the slats are deployed drag is increased, .. if the Slats would not increased the CL properly, surely the Dr.Eng. Willy Messerschmitt would have eliminated the slats without hesitation from the biginning.

....

 

...

In the book " DESIGN FOR AIR COMBAT" by Ray Whitford -1987- The benefits of automatic slats in combat, are well explained:.

""" Slat with a slot (slotted stat)

.....

However, when account is taken of the resulting increase in maximum lift and its favourable effect on lateral/directional flying qualities, the extra complication is amply justified.

....

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And drag?? Nobody think about it?? I read a lot about of Cl in this thread but nobody has said that induced drag also increase with the Cl increase... so the drag is the price we pay for increase the lift. Anyone has a lift-drag curve? And the final question is (taking in to account all forces), how much is the benefit provided by the slats??

 

Dingdingding, give the man a prize. This is exactly what I've pointed out all along. Even a cursory 3-minute flight of the Mustang and Kurfurst in DCS will show that the Kurfurst has a DOMINATING, immediately noticeable advantage in turn rate (degrees/second), particularly at low speed.

 

The problem isn't that the Kurfurst can't turn faster, it's that when you choose to employ that tight turn, you dump all your airspeed. A smart Mustang pilot will exploit that and kill you.

 

You can't treat the rapid low-speed turn rate as an "easy button" on the Kurfurst. Yet, I see many, many pilots online trying to do just that, over and over, online.

 

It's a tool in the toolkit, to be used only when the right opportunity presents itself (mostly, this means "it will give you the opportunity to take a shot"), just like dropping combat flaps in the Mustang: not for every situation.

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Anyway, the P51D at standard load doesn't outturn the K4 in either direction, those that do have 35% fuel loaded(around 100 US Gallons, the same fuel load as the K4), and only to the right, with flaps, but if the K4 also pop flaps then no way the P51D can outturn the K4.

 

In case you didn't know, at 35% fuel the P51D had 24km/m2 lower wings loading than the K4.

 

Also, btw, you're comparing airfoil drag but forgot airframe drag.


Edited by GrapeJam
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as it is now, the flaps give you no advantage in turning with the 109 at all it seems.

we did a couple of test turns against each other, and we were all quite surprised that the flaps didnt help at all...usually even the 109 with flaps down stalled first.(we tried several different position of flaps)

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Strange David,

 

I'll have to pay more attention the next time I deploy my flaps, usually just a couple of full wheel turns... I was almost sure they did provide:

 

1) Better sustained turn rate

 

2) Less prone to accelerated stall turning flight

 

but I've been spending more time in the Dora and Pony lately...

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Anyway, the P51D at standard load doesn't outturn the K4 in either direction, those that do have 35% fuel loaded(around 100 US Gallons, the same fuel load as the K4), and only to the right, with flaps, but if the K4 also pop flaps then no way the P51D can outturn the K4.

 

In case you didn't know, at 35% fuel the P51D had 24km/m2 lower wings loading than the K4.

 

Also, btw, you're comparing airfoil drag but forgot airframe drag.

 

 

I open quite many information for my opinion. How about you giving me some information like drag comparson for your opinion?

 

Here is my answer.

 

1. Both aircrafts are liquid cooling and stream-lined aircrafts. Mostly same shape. Of course Bf109K-4 have little more drag in airframe like some intakes but, far better P/M ratio can overflow it.

 

2. Of course I know that. The Weight of P-51D with 180gal of fuel is 9,611lb. Each gal of aviation gasoline is 6lb. Weight of 80gal of fuels are 480lb. So weight P-51D with 100gal(378L) of fuel is 9,131lb and it is 4,141kg. Wingloading of P-51D with 100gal of fuel is 189kg/m² and Bf109K-4 with maximum fuel(400L) is 207kg/m². Wingloading of P-51D with 100gal of fuel is 18kg/m² lower than Bf109K-4 with maximum fuel.


Edited by gomwolf
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I open quite many information for my opinion. How about you giving me some information like drag comparson for your opinion?

 

Here is my answer.

 

1. Both aircrafts are liquid cooling and stream-lined aircrafts. Mostly same shape. Of course Bf109K-4 have little more drag in airframe like some intakes but, far better P/M ratio can overflow it.

 

You also forgot slats when deployed, and from what I've seen, you like to turn hard and waste a lot of energy.

 

2. Of course I know that. The Weight of P-51D with 180gal of fuel is 9,611lb. Each gal of aviation gasoline is 6lb. Weight of 80gal of fuels are 480lb. So weight P-51D with 100gal(378L) of fuel is 9,131lb and it is 4,141kg. Wingloading of P-51D with 100gal of fuel is 189kg/m² and Bf109K-4 with maximum fuel(400L) is 207kg/m². Wingloading of P-51D with 100gal of fuel is 18kg/m² lower than Bf109K-4 with maximum fuel.

 

What, you think the P51D fly to the fight without burning any fuel or something? Especially those of us who like to to climb for a bit.

 

Anyway, as I told you, the P51D only outturn the K4 slight at low fuel and very slightly to the right with flaps out. In every other scenario the K4 outturn the P51D handily, you messed up and instead of learning you come here to whine.

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as it is now, the flaps give you no advantage in turning with the 109 at all it seems.

we did a couple of test turns against each other, and we were all quite surprised that the flaps didnt help at all...usually even the 109 with flaps down stalled first.(we tried several different position of flaps)

I have noticed lower stalling speed with flaps deployed, but the turn rate at those low speeds is not realy impressive(still superior to P-51 though). Though they give better stability at slow speeds. I would say that good speed for turning for 109K4 is at around 300-350kph. This is when it can turn realy well.

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You also forgot slats when deployed, and from what I've seen, you like to turn hard and waste a lot of energy.

 

When slat delpoyed, laminar flow airfoil makes huge mount of drag. And I like combat maneuvering than energy combat but have to keep my energy for it.

 

 

What, you think the P51D fly to the fight without burning any fuel or something? Especially those of us who like to to climb for a bit.

 

Anyway, as I told you, the P51D only outturn the K4 slight at low fuel and very slightly to the right with flaps out. In every other scenario the K4 outturn the P51D handily, you messed up and instead of learning you come here to whine.

 

Yep. Bf109K-4 burning fuel like P-51D.

 

And I am not whining here. Everything you don't want to see is not the whining. I am discussing here.

 

I do not say anything about performance of airacrafts in online gameplay except wing structure(I really happy it will be fixed in next update.). The reason I told something in forum is I want more realistic virtual flight experience, and I think this kinds of discussion is good for it.

 

I expected more sources or documents I don't know for opposite or similar opinions like old Aces high forum, but actually it is not going I expected.


Edited by gomwolf
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When slat delpoyed, laminar flow airfoil makes huge mount of drag. And I like ACM but have to keep my energy for it.

 

What the hell did I just read?

 

And yep, perharps you like ACM a little bit too much by pulling as hard as possible, which ain't good at keeping energy.

 

 

 

Yep. Bf109K-4 burning fuel like P-51D.

Yeah, but someone of us who knows the P51D has bad climb rate so we like to spend more time getting altitude.

 

And I am not whining here. Everything you don't want to see is not the whining. I am discussing here.

 

I do not say anything about performance of airacrafts in online gameplay except wing structure(I really happy it will be fixed in next update.). The reason I told something in forum is I want more realistic virtual flight experience, and I think this kinds of aerodynamical discussion is good for it.

 

I expected more sources or documents for other peoples opinions like old Aces high forum, but actually it is not going I expected.

Moot discussion tbh, first you come here and claim something that makes everyone who fly the mustang go "What in the....." and then demand fix for your own mess up, well it's not like the K4 doesn't need fixing, just not at what you want.
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What the hell did I just read?

 

And yep, perharps you like ACM a little bit too much by pulling as hard as possible, which ain't good at keeping energy.

 

 

In high angle of attack laminar flow wing make huge amount of drag.

I play this game with you only little time and you didn't see my combat style. I cannot understand how could you say like know everything about my combat style?

 

 

Yeah, but someone of us who knows the P51D has bad climb rate so we like to spend more time getting altitude.

 

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/fx953.html

P-51B with 9200lb performance. Still Bf109K-4 have far better climb rate.

 

Moot discussion tbh, first you come here and claim something that makes everyone who fly the mustang go "What in the....." and then demand fix for your own mess up, well it's not like the K4 doesn't need fixing, just not at what you want.

 

I never used the word "claim" or "fix" in this thread except wing structure. At first thread I written, the subject is "Some opinion about maneuverability of Bf109K-4" and I just said "little weird thing on FM on DCS" and "Any Opinion and advice will be welcomed."

 

I don't want to fix it. If I want to fix it with my opinion I said it clearly. If FM manager of DCS think it is right, it will be fixed, but I didn't expect that. Because DEV got other answer about that, and maybe they can open their information about it. If their answers does not destroy the game, basically I do not care about that.


Edited by gomwolf
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... you messed up and instead of learning you come here to whine.

 

Really? Why does it have to get so snarkey? :(

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NACA 2R1 14.2(Bf109K-4) Polar Drag

 

 

NACA 45-100(P-51D) Polar Drag

 

Advantage of drag on P-51D is occured only inside of drag bucket. Outside of it(yep. in turn fighting situation), there is no drag advantage.

 

Way to miss the point. I didn't say anything about relative drag at equal angle of attack, or anything of the like. All things being equal, the harder you pull around the turn, the higher the drag. The Messerschmitt just allows you to go even further into that energy sinkhole than the Mustang does, because it permits higher-alpha maneuvers.

 

Just because the Messerschmitt makes it POSSIBLE to turn all your airspeed into angles, does not make it a wise move. Nonetheless, many (most!) of the online players I've seen in the Bf109K4 are doing just that: turning as hard as they can, without regard for conserving energy.

 

The Bf109K4 has some low-speed turning options that the Mustang doesn't, but those options are generally poor choices in almost all circumstances except getting the last couple degrees to get a shot in (IE, same circumstance that dropping flaps in Mustang would be appropriate).

 

Also, it is gratifying to see that the DCS Bf109K4 are now having appropriate difficulty maintaining high-speed turns with the Mustang.

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as it is now, the flaps give you no advantage in turning with the 109 at all it seems.

we did a couple of test turns against each other, and we were all quite surprised that the flaps didnt help at all...usually even the 109 with flaps down stalled first.(we tried several different position of flaps)

 

That's exactly what I noticed. 0 flap advantage in a turn. That's unrealistic.

 

I read about Marseille using landing flaps to turn better. That may be just a war story but combat flaps should help in turning.

 

 

 

Just because the Messerschmitt makes it POSSIBLE to turn all your airspeed into angles, does not make it a wise move. Nonetheless, many (most!) of the online players I've seen in the Bf109K4 are doing just that: turning as hard as they can, without regard for conserving energy.

 

 

What's your online name ? i'm just curious how many times I shot you down ?

 

Mine is ivjg4-Knight. I'm not part of jg4 but jg4 had a knight emblem and I like knights :D .

 

I noticed 4trouble was a great F.. pilot.I was honoured to fight him.


Edited by otto
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  • ED Team
as it is now, the flaps give you no advantage in turning with the 109 at all it seems.

we did a couple of test turns against each other, and we were all quite surprised that the flaps didnt help at all...usually even the 109 with flaps down stalled first.(we tried several different position of flaps)

 

It is still beta.

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That's exactly what I noticed. 0 flap advantage in a turn. That's unrealistic.

 

I read about Marseille using landing flaps to turn better. That may be just a war story but combat flaps should help in turning.

 

 

 

 

What's your online name ? i'm just curious how many times I shot you down ?

 

Mine is ivjg4-Knight. I'm not part of jg4 but jg4 had a knight emblem and I like knights :D .

 

I noticed 4trouble was a great F.. pilot.I was honoured to fight him.

 

Hellhorse, I don't think I've ever seen your tag, fly exclusively on the DoW servers, and run generally 5:1 kill ratio in the Mustang, with probably 2.5:1 or 3:1 if you exclude AI kills.

 

Not that any of that has any bearing whatsoever on the argument at hand, constituting, at best, a sad attempt to set up an ad hominem.

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What the outboard slats on the 109's wing do is increase the overall CLmax of the wing to the same level as that of the wing root section, i.e. around 1.60. Which means you get a higher overall CLmax than usual, plus the added benefit of full aileron effectiveness right up to the stall.

 

That's why Messerschmitt stuck with them, because they gave a greater improvement in maneuverability & landing speed than the addition of wing fences or washout could provide, as all three methods were thuroughly tested. The Russians, discovering the very same benefits, went with the same design on their premier frontline fighter, the La series.

 

The addition of rounded wing tips on the F series onwards was done to improve the spanwise lift distribution to become more elliptical, reducing drag. The increased aspect ratio also increased the wings efficiency (L/D ratio).

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:doh:

Because of the bad climb rate, thus we spend more time climbing, we start with 35%, around 45 US Gallons in each wing tank and when we enter combat it's usually less than 30 US gallons for each, understand?

 

:doh:

1. Even P-51D climb with empty weight(3,465kg-1630HP), still Bf109K-4 with maximum fuel(3,362kg-1823HP) have better P/M ratio. It means better climb rate.

 

2. If I can get any situation I want, I can kill any pilot even ace pilot like t4trouble. Not only me every person can do that.

 

3. Stop teasing me anymore. I don't have time to waste for a groundless dimishing. There are some good advice and opinions I have to care.

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Also the reason that Messerschmitt didn't go with full span slats is simple: It wouldn't do much good on a prop fighter. (A jet is a different matter, explanation below)

 

The span of the slats was carefully established around the knowledge that the wing root always stalls at a later AoA than the outboard section, and that the higher CLmax of the wing root is increased even further as air is accelerated over the wing by the prop when power is turned on.

 

As a result the slats were designed & placed so as to cover the areas which are out of the accelerated airstream and don't benefit from the extra lift generated in this area, the slats increasing the lift of the outboard section to match that of the root section. End result is that the overall lift of the wing with power on is increased by as much as 20%.

 

Thus that the P-51 even comes close to the turning capability of the 109 in this game is a mistake (even at 35% fuel), and one that needs correcting.


Edited by Hummingbird
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:huh:

Way to miss the point. I didn't say anything about relative drag at equal angle of attack, or anything of the like. All things being equal, the harder you pull around the turn, the higher the drag. The Messerschmitt just allows you to go even further into that energy sinkhole than the Mustang does, because it permits higher-alpha maneuvers.

 

Just because the Messerschmitt makes it POSSIBLE to turn all your airspeed into angles, does not make it a wise move. Nonetheless, many (most!) of the online players I've seen in the Bf109K4 are doing just that: turning as hard as they can, without regard for conserving energy.

 

The Bf109K4 has some low-speed turning options that the Mustang doesn't, but those options are generally poor choices in almost all circumstances except getting the last couple degrees to get a shot in (IE, same circumstance that dropping flaps in Mustang would be appropriate).

 

Also, it is gratifying to see that the DCS Bf109K4 are now having appropriate difficulty maintaining high-speed turns with the Mustang.

 

Actually, this thread for the performance(one more actually, not even in game performance) not my skill.

 

Here is my answer.

 

First, yes I love scissors, rolling scissors, high and low yo-yo, continuous loof, and that kinds of interwinding manevers. If I can get good point for BnZ, I did it. However, in most case I play this game with more than 350 ping and in DCS as you know wing structure of Bf109 is too weak for it. I lost my wing several times for it.

 

Second, I agree that difficulty of maintaining turn with Bf109 in high speed is quite good. I really satisfied about stick movement in high stick force situation. However I think Bf109K-4 in history does not have serious fluttering at low speed turning like game and have better stall performance.


Edited by gomwolf
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:huh:

Way to miss the point. I didn't say anything about relative drag at equal angle of attack, or anything of the like. All things being equal, the harder you pull around the turn, the higher the drag. The Messerschmitt just allows you to go even further into that energy sinkhole than the Mustang does, because it permits higher-alpha maneuvers.

 

Just because the Messerschmitt makes it POSSIBLE to turn all your airspeed into angles, does not make it a wise move. Nonetheless, many (most!) of the online players I've seen in the Bf109K4 are doing just that: turning as hard as they can, without regard for conserving energy.

 

The Bf109K4 has some low-speed turning options that the Mustang doesn't, but those options are generally poor choices in almost all circumstances except getting the last couple degrees to get a shot in (IE, same circumstance that dropping flaps in Mustang would be appropriate).

 

Also, it is gratifying to see that the DCS Bf109K4 are now having appropriate difficulty maintaining high-speed turns with the Mustang.

 

Actually, this thread for the performance(one more actually, not even in game performance) not my skill.

 

Here is my answer.

 

First, yes I love scissors, rolling scissors, high and low yo-yo, continuous loof, and that kinds of interwinding manevers. If I can get good point for BnZ, I did it. However, in most case I play this game with more than 350 ping and in DCS as you know wing structure of Bf109 is too weak for it. I lost my wing several times for it.

 

Second, I agree that difficulty of maintaining turn with Bf109 in high speed is quite good. I really satisfied about stick movement in high stick force situation. However I think Bf109K-4 in history does not fluttering seriously at low speed turning like game and have better stall performance.


Edited by gomwolf
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