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Can someone please explain some things to a newbie?


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Ok, so I'm on the steam version, but for the purposes of this post it doesn't really matter.

 

Can someone please, please freaking explain to me the logic behind making Flaming Cliffs 3, basically a game in itself, with like 5 planes, a campaign, etc, LESS expensive than say, the standalone F-86 or Mig-15? Cuz uh, I don't care how detailed it is, how good you made the flight model, if there's a fully clickable cockpit...it just does not make sense to charge more, for less content. @____@

 

Also, regarding the beta versions of planes....

 

I thought the whole point of a BETA release was that it was unfinished, and therefore either free or dirt cheap....so if I download, say, the F-86 Beta for the non Steam version of DCS, I still have to pay for a license key (which as far as I'm aware is just as much as buying the plane outright?) How does that make any sense as well?

 

Or am I just missing something right in front of me?

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Uh Oh!

 

Getting the popcorn ready for this one:music_whistling:

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Your missing allot..... If you think the full flight models and full modules are less content then The call of duty fc3 aircraft, well wow really don't know what to say sorry.

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I'm not anywhere near as knowledgable as others on here, but I might be able to help with a couple of those queries.

Flaming cliffs is cheaper than the individual models because it is a modern version of Lock On Modern Air Combat which was released about 10 years ago ( I may be wrong on that figure but close ). Therefore, the development of that program has been going for all that time. And has also sold many, many copies in that time which paid for that money Eagle Dynamics outplayed to develop the program.

The individual Aircraft cost more because they have only been in development for a year or 2 ( many of the Modules are only a few months old ).

Eagle Dynamics hasn't made as many sales of these products yet, to cover the costs of development. Workers have to get paid somehow.

And unlike many other game manufacturers who give their Beta Versions out for free or low cost, generally have many other titles already in the market making sales, to cover the cost of developing that free/low cost Beta. Eagle Dynamics do not have that luxury.

At least that is my take on it.

There's a lot more to the Individual Modules than just clickable buttons. I hope I helped a little.


Edited by Spasticatedtoad
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The A-10C, F-86F, MiG-15, KA-50, Mi-8, UH-1H, P-51D, FW-190, BF-109 etc All have professional systems/flight modeling, and are study level modules

 

FC3 and Single FC Aircaft are not.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=122801

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Can someone please explain some things to a newbie?

 

Beta software does not mean what it once did. It simply means you can get it before it's complete. As we all know the bugs are never really all worked out so really it works out to early access. And most of these planes did have a cheap(er) pre-sale.

 

As for the detail: flaming cliffs was its own game, 20 years ago. Therefore even though they've upgraded it, it is nowhere near the quality of 1 DCS level aircraft. If you are patient, all the aircraft do go on sale I have a lot of them and never spent more than $20 on each. If all you want is to mess around and have fun- buy FC3. If you want to learn as a real pilot would how to fly something, man up and pay more for he quality

 

TL:DR

 

you pay for the quality

FC3=Hyundai accent

DCS aircraft= Ferrari

 

Edit:took too long to type. Ninja'd by so many others

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Instead of looking at this from a $/feature standpoint, look at it from economics. Perhaps a small history lesson will help as well.

 

First of all, with the "full DCS" planes, you get much more than just a clickable cockpit; you get pretty much every system in the aircraft faithfully modeled and integrated, so it's much more than "click this switch to turn this on". You're also getting a full physics flight model.

you'll see the terms AFM, PFM, and EFM flying around; with the definitions simplified, this means that the flight model is very very accurate. Licensing notwithstanding, the development time and fidelity warrants the price.

 

So why does FC3, which has all but 2 aircraft with AFM/PFMs, cost less? Well, the flight models may be top notch, but the systems and avionics modeling is significantly less than a full DCS module. While the more recent updates continue to blur the line, this wasn't always the case. Here is where the history lesson comes in.

 

Back in 2003, ED released Lock On: Modern Air Combat, which included all of the aircraft in Flaming Cliffs 3, but with simplified systems, 2D cockpits, and simplified flight models (SFMs). Once ED broke from Ubisoft (the Lock On publisher), they released the Flaming Cliffs expansion, which included the Su-25T with the Advanced Flight Model (AFM). After the Ka-50 Black Shark was released, ED released FC2 so that the Lock On/FC planes would be multiplayer compatible with the Ka-50. Finally, the A-10C led to Black Shark 2, which then led to DCS World (with the Su-25T now included as a free aircraft). So ED has been using mostly legacy code from 2003, and incrementally updating all of the aircraft so that they can be released as less expensive standalone modules. When FC3 was first released, the only 3D cockpit was the F-15C, and there were no AFMs/PFMs. In other words, ED has already made money from the FC aircraft, so there is no need to charge $50 for each (not to mention it would alienate the faithful customers since Lock On or earlier).

 

As for the Beta label, think of it more as "early access" than paying to be a beta tester. This allows the developers (who have a long development time and need funding without having to rely on a publisher) to generate capital during development. It's semantics, but considering there are people who have paid hundreds of dollars for early access to IL-2: BoS, Elite: Dangerous, and Star Citizen, paying face value isn't that bad a deal. Or you can wait until the beta goes final and pay for it then with no net loss.

 

EDIT: Sniped by the peanut gallery. :D


Edited by Home Fries
Sniped
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Well, that does certainly clear things up. Cuz yeah I was scouring the net for days for an explanation and just could not find one, cuz apparently this is all common knowledge except to someone new to ED products, like me.

 

Speaking of which...

 

Getting the popcorn ready for this one:music_whistling:

Your missing allot..... If you think the full flight models and full modules are less content then The call of duty fc3 aircraft, well wow really don't know what to say sorry.

 

DID say I was a newbie, so thanks for killing the notion I wouldn't be chagrined for the post.

 

But thank you very much to everyone else who was actually helpful

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Barnstormer1126,

I think you misinterpreted my post. The questions you asked have been out there for some time and are very legit. This is the first time I've seen someone explain it as well as Homefries. Don't let your "newbieness" keep you from asking very logical/pertinent questions. Believe me, there are others that don't perceive themselves as "newbies"with like questions that simply don't take the time to ask. They simply make assumptions. You're going to enjoy what DCS offers and it seems you are at the start of a road that many have been on for years.And it's going to get even better!

I think the only questions that some, including the moderators, will jump on are those where the answers could have been obtained by reading the appropriate documentations provided or via the forum search engine for threads where some questions have been answered ad infinitum. Other than that, most are very helpful and forthcoming with their knowledge of DCSW and they literally are from all over the world. Welcome!

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Ok, so I'm on the steam version, but for the purposes of this post it doesn't really matter.

 

Can someone please, please freaking explain to me the logic behind making Flaming Cliffs 3, basically a game in itself, with like 5 planes, a campaign, etc, LESS expensive than say, the standalone F-86 or Mig-15? Cuz uh, I don't care how detailed it is, how good you made the flight model, if there's a fully clickable cockpit...it just does not make sense to charge more, for less content. @____@

 

Also, regarding the beta versions of planes....

 

I thought the whole point of a BETA release was that it was unfinished, and therefore either free or dirt cheap....so if I download, say, the F-86 Beta for the non Steam version of DCS, I still have to pay for a license key (which as far as I'm aware is just as much as buying the plane outright?) How does that make any sense as well?

 

Or am I just missing something right in front of me?

For example, DCS A-10C manual is 600+ pages. With a lot of systems and different things you can use. I bought it when it first came out and I still have not learn all the systems and all it can do. I still fly it, so it does not prevent me to have fun with it online or single payer, but I can sit here and read for hours on it. I can practice several scenarios or try multitude of systems. Same goes for the KA-50. Just learning the basics on the ABRIS took a lot of time (I bought the Russian version, I don't speak Russian), which I enjoyed and entertained me. Talking about getting your moneys worth. I can think of another gaming software that I am still playing 7 year after release and still learning and having fun with it.

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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Can't say much, but since I've been a little boy I wanted to fly a coaxial rotor heli. And when I bought it, I found out that pretty much of the stuff is modeled. Especially the navigation system (ABRIS) which is in essence a sim within the sim.

 

Same goes for the A10C - there is even more systems simulated.

 

If you want to learn about navigation, you can totally do so. These sims are worth their money for the sheer amount of learn you can have (if you want).

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Think of it this way. FC3 is a box of chicken nuggets. Fun, easy to eat, cheap and you get a lot. The full modules that are more expensive, those are professionally prepared sirloin steak. Exact same logic, you're paying for the quality.

 

Now there are some people who don't appreciate a good sirloin steak and would rather have that box of chicken nuggets, but it'd be a tad absurd fo them to stalk into a restaurant and demand a cheaper price for the steak because they can get nuggets over at McDonald's for a couple of bucks.

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Think of it this way. FC3 is a box of chicken nuggets. Fun, easy to eat, cheap and you get a lot. The full modules that are more expensive, those are professionally prepared sirloin steak. Exact same logic, you're paying for the quality.

 

Now there are some people who don't appreciate a good sirloin steak and would rather have that box of chicken nuggets, but it'd be a tad absurd fo them to stalk into a restaurant and demand a cheaper price for the steak because they can get nuggets over at McDonald's for a couple of bucks.

 

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snip

 

FC3 is essentially legacy content, which has merely been ported to the modern DCS engine with a few substantial enhancements/added features. In other words, you're buying a 12 year old sim and it's priced accordingly. The DCS modules are much newer projects, projects which, when released to beta, have yet to pay for themselves through sales. Likewise, the depth of simulation requires a substantially more expensive development process for the developers, all of which has to be recovered through sales, and yet the deeper the simulation, generally the smaller the audience of people whom you can sell to. Something has to give, and the least worst option is price.

 

All that said, some of the beta modules really aren't worth the money. The A-10C, MiG-21, and UH-1H betas were far enough along in development and shipped with enough content that they very much were worth the price of entry. In contrast, despite being my all time favorite military aircraft, the F-86 module, while not without merit, does not provide a comparable amount of value for its $50 price tag. With that in mind, I've been taking a break from DCS for most of this year, just waiting for the engine and environment to catch up with the module releases so that the modules can become more worthwhile purchases.

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BETA

Years ago games were just released which were really not finished. Public complained and flamed, and publishers, were under pressure to fix them through many patches over a long time. Customers were disenchanted. Flight sims suffered more than other genre's because the market was niche, publishers were generally small, and the software was complex.

 

Now publishers, release their 'beta' versions, which are not much different to the quality of full releases in the early days of sims. But now the customer buys it with eyes open, and the expectation of bugs which will be fixed.

 

Net result is the early adapters get their hands on the software, but don't have anything to compain about (though some still do). The publisher gets some dosh in so they can continue to improve the product, and the early adaptors become the beta testers. So win win. A much better development model.

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