1970-75: BAE Lightning vs MiG-21 vs F-8 Crusader

[Hummingbird]

Which was the better fighter in your opinion?

[mvsgas]

Depends on the versions, the situation and many more details.

Some Mig-21 did not have a gun. Some had very little ammo for the gun. Not the best as a fighter. The Lightning was an interceptor AFAIK ( like the Mig-21), they could not turn as good as others. Both the Lightning and some versions of the Mig where very short legs.

The F-8 was agile but guns could also jam regularly. Some had in flight refueling.

 

I thought the Lightning was made by the English Electric company, not BEA? BEA came after AFAIK.

Edited May 26, 2015 by mvsgas

[Hummingbird]

Situation is that all three will be entering combat in fighter configuration, where the question then is which will be the better fighter.

 

Also yes it was English Electric, can't edit the title though :-/

 

As for the Lightning, it was reputably a pretty decent turner and probably a match for the F-8 in this department, although I haven't really looked at the numbers yet. Both the Lightning & F-8 would probably outturn the MiG-21, but in terms of speed and climb rate I think only the Lightning can match the MiG-21.

[mvsgas]

Ok, Which version of the aircraft?

Lightning F1, F1A, etc.

Mig-21F, MF, etc.

F-8D, E, etc.

[mvsgas]

In general terms I would say the F-8 would be a better "fighter".

The Mig-21 had more weapons varieties, was more successful in exports, longer service life, more modified and modernize, more widely used, etc.

Lightning could have a better radar and longer range missiles, but I do not think they where ever used in combat so their reliability and effectiveness is a matter of opinion AFAIK.

Edited May 26, 2015 by mvsgas

[mvsgas]

Is a PIA to find information on the Electric Lightning. Between the F-35 and the P-38, not to mention all of the weather reports or studies, the information gets deluted.

[Vampyre]

Is a PIA to find information on the Electric Lightning. Between the F-35 and the P-38, not to mention all of the weather reports or studies, the information gets deluted.

 

Was easy enough for me. I just pulled up google and typed English Electric Lightening and voila! Lots of Lightening sites and pics. :thumbup:

[mvsgas]

Any documents with good info of just wiki pages?

[Hummingbird]

Ok, Which version of the aircraft?

Lightning F1, F1A, etc.

Mig-21F, MF, etc.

F-8D, E, etc.

 

The premier type within the 1970-75 timeframe I'd say, thus service life and export success is of no concern in this comparison.

 

Thus it would be the Lightning F.6, Crusader F-8E & MiG-21 F-13.

[Vampyre]

Any documents with good info of just wiki pages?

 

I don't know. I don't care enough for that particular jet to look for any docs.

[mvsgas]

I don't know. I don't care enough for that particular jet to look for any docs.

 

So no, ok

[mvsgas]

The premier type within the 1970-75 timeframe I'd say, thus service life and export success is of no concern in this comparison.

 

Thus it would be the Lightning F.6, Crusader F-8E & MiG-21 F-13.

 

If we are sticking to the 1970-75 time frame, all three versions where outdated. AFAIK, most F-8 units where long past replace their E versions with different aircraft or newer models. E came to service in 61 to 64 AFAIK.

 

For the Mig-21 or the Lightning not sure.

 

Of all three I still say the F-8E. Trying to get more info.

Edited May 26, 2015 by mvsgas

[WinterH]

I think F-13 is a bit old for 70-75 period. Although, the period itself is pretty wide and may be a bit too wide for an easy comparison.

 

Crusader would be the slowest of the bunch, but also best turning one. Lightning would be the king of speed & climb, and MiG is likely in between those two.

 

I would be surprised if Lightning turns better, or even as good as MiG, any documents about turning performance of it?

 

A very rough categorization would be, going from fighter to interceptor, F-8, MiG-21, Lightning, F-8 being pure dogfighter and Lightning pure interceptor.

 

If the MiG we consider is the Bis, it may have been my personal overall choice. If earlier versions though not too sure.

 

If though, question is which would I like to see in DCS, why, too easy, all of them :D!

[Random]

Dead easy to find the data for the lightning. Gimme a list of what you want and I'll try to find it.

 

The lightning was surprisingly agile for such a big beast... Way more wing area than a mig21 but whether that translated to better turn performance i'm not so sure.

 

And of course the Lightning just wins by default. Better than 100% efficiency at converting fuel to awesome.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Random

[mvsgas]

To properly compare them we would need to know for all three:

- Service life of the specific version- If it was only used for 2 years, I would not think the pilots where proficient enough to master them. If possible, annual pilot training hours would be best.

- Combat record- It would not prove anything 100%, but if aircraft "A' killed "X" amount with "y" weapons, at least we can see if it was proven.

- Average speed with combat load- Maximum speed is irrelevant since rarely, if ever, can aircraft achieve that fully loaded.

- Range- What is the point to be the fastest or the most agile if you don't have enough fuel to fight.

- Average or operational height with combat load- like the speed, there is a maximum, but only achieve for an instant then is to no use.

- Combat weigh and thrust?

 

What else you guys think?

Edited May 26, 2015 by mvsgas

[Random]

I'll dig out what data I can though average height and speeds are a little tricky as that kinda depends on what you are doing...

 

Combat record for the lightning is easy... was never used in anger.

 

Service life for the F.6 was 1964 or 65 off the top of my head until 1987 or 88 though I don't think you can really claim that length of service = pilot skill....

[Basher54321]

1970 -75 I would probably go with:

1. F-8J
   
2. MiG-21MF
   
3. Lightning F.6
   

 

Combat Record -

• Not aware the Lightning F.6 saw any combat service A-A - ( Saudi Lightning F.53s may have got some ground attack action.)
   
  
• MiG-21MFs were used by VPAF in 1972 over Nam - almost similar external look to the bis and had 4 missiles/internal gun.
   
  
• F-8J was the variant most deployed in Nam after 1970 - was an upgraded F-8E with more powerful engine and a few other bits. Didn't see much A-A because the F-4s were primary fighters by then - had one claimed MiG-17 kill.
  

 

A-A Combat load:

• Lightning F.6 - 2 * Redtop / Firestreak / 2 * internal 30mm Aden cannon
  
• The F-8J - 4 * AIM-9 / 4 * internal 20 mm cannon
  
• MiG-21MF - 4 * AA-2 / 1* internal 23mm cannon (sometimes had centreline drop tank)
  

 

Would need the performance charts to see the actual performance drop - but it won't be much with those loads if we forget the tank.

 

Radar

 

All 3 had tiny pulse radars in tiny nose cones - nothing to compare.

 

MiG-21MF and F-8J were newer and had newer model radars (no idea on Lightning upgrades)

 

Countermeasures

 

• RWR - MiG-21MF / F-8J
  
• ECM/Jammer - F-8J
  
• Expendables - F-8J
  

 

Not aware of any countermeasures on the F.6

 

Cockpit Visibility

• MiG-21/F-8 both poor but look similar
  
• Lightning even worse - suffers due to the cage over the top of the canopy (similar to early F-102A)
  

 

Performance

• The lightning you would think for acceleration and climb based on figures/stories
  
• I would go MiG-21MF or F-8J for BFM / WVR combat.
  

 

Range (Internal fuel on A-A combat )

Would guess between MiG-21 & F-8

 

 

 

The 1969 F.6 manual describes it as a high alt interceptor - in 1970-75 the F-4M had started to replace the Lightnings and were equipped with Pulse doppler radars to carry out low level intercept over Germany. The F-8 was also being phased out for F-4s in front line units - whereas the MiG-21MF did see action for Iraq in the 80s for one.

 

 

 

http://www.lightning.org.uk/julaug05sotm.html

 

You asked for my impressions of the Mk.6. They were all good. I had flown F-86Ds, F-94B and Cs, F-89Js, F-104s, F-100s, F-86Fs, F-102s and F-106s. In the UK, I flew air-to-air against F-4s and F-104Gs. At no time did I lose a 1 v 1 or a 1 v 2. And I was not very good at air to air. Yes, short legs, but a great turning radius and excellent acceleration, especially when you can unload a little.

 

 

 

There’s life in the old dog yet - two F-15s, an F-5 Aggressor and a Sea Harrier caught where they shouldn’t have been by the gun cameras of Lightning pilots of 11 Squadron.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Basher54321

[Random]

Few quick bits on the Lightnings performance....

 

All figures for F.6 with Avon 301's

 

Full reheat Time to altitude ICAO at 38 500 starting weight with ventral tank and red tops...

 

20 000ft about 55seconds

30 000ft 90 seconds

40 000ft 156 seconds

 

 

Max cruise range configuration as above 36 000ft 0.87 mach

805NM

 

Max Speeds and acceleration from 0.87cruise Red tops, ventral tank and starting at 36 000lbs. Max speeds may be off... I'm just going from where the acceleration graph lines stop. Given more time higher speeds may be attainable.

Again ICAO

 

5000ft : 1.12 Mach in 108s

15000ft: 1.42 Mach in 192s

25000ft : 1.72 Mach in 246s

35000ft :1.98 Mach in 372s

 

Note: It will accelerate past mach 1 without reheat from about 5000ft..... Don't think the F8 or Mig21 can do that!

Note2: With avon 302's above 20k ft knock 10% off the acceleration times!

 

 

Just reading up on turn performance and trying to figure out the graphs!

Edited May 26, 2015 by Random

[Hummingbird]

Based on the available data I'd say that the Crusader is probably the best turning aircraft (mostly due to its LE slats), but is likely very closely followed by Lightning which by all accounts was very impressive in the turn, boasting some impressive high alpha capability. The MiG-21 I'm sure would struggle in a turn fight with either.

 

The Lightning obviously rules the climb and speed department, followed next by the MiG-21 and then the Crusader.

 

Perhaps a better timeframe for the comparison would've been 1965-70, and I'd like it if a moderator could adjust the title to reflect that.

 

Here's the view from the Lightning cockpit, which to me looks just as good or better than the two others:

[Random]

Id be interested to see sustained turn performance for the crusader and mig ... Thrust is important for a sustained turn and the lightning wins there....

 

The view up and rearwards in the lightning isn't great... I've only sat in one with the canopy open but the canopy frame would certainly limit your view

[mvsgas]

Basher54321 and Random,

Thanks, good information and a good read. Now we need to find F-8 and mig numbers. I will keep looking see if I find something relevant.

[Bushranger]

In case you guys are interested I found some stats on the F-8, not sure if they're helpful or not,

 

Performance :pilotfly:

 

Dry thrust (no afterburner) - 10,700 lbf

 

Thrust with afterburner - 18,000 lbf

 

Max Speed (Sea level) - Mach 1.2

 

Max Speed (at altitude) - Mach 1.7+

 

Service ceiling - 17,680m (58,000 ft)

 

Rate of climb - 19,000 feet per-minute

 

Maximum range - 870nm

 

Aircraft Dimensions

 

Length -54.5 ft

Wingspan - 35.6 ft

Height - 15.75 ft

 

Weight

 

Empty - 17,836 lb

MTOW - 34,100 lb

 

if I find more specs I will add them to this post. :pilotfly:

Edited May 27, 2015 by Bushranger

[mvsgas]

So far, the little information I have found ( I do mean little)

Looking into the F8U-2NE or F-8E, still need to look more for the Mig-21F-13 (Do we include the J-7 as a mig-21F-13?)

It seems the Lightning F6 ( or Mk6, not sure which is more accurate) could control the fight. My meaning is it seem to have had a faster average speed and dash speed and higher zoom climb and average altitude. In my limited knowledge, this would indicate that the aircraft, In a defensive role, could positions itself in a way to surprise ether the F-8 or the Mig-21 from a higher altitude and it could accelerate or climb out of the fight. Not sure if it could do that in a offensive role ( not sure if any of the 3 could... I guess the could with GCI) One for the F6

 

Now, the lightning seem to be the heaviest of the three, so it might have agility but not sure about sustain maneuverability. But I think the MIg and the lightning would have the advantage at high altitude, while they F6 and F8 could have the advantage at low altitude. ( several websites describe the Mig-21 to loose energy quickly at low attitude, related to the Delta wing if I understand correctly) Not sure who wins this one

 

Both the F8u and the F6 had inflight refueling (AFAIK) This would allow them to refuel prior to or after combat ( or both) So pilot could use AB/reheat more frequently, giving more power and better chance to succeed in maintaining energy. No point of wining the fight if you can't make it home. Advantage F6 and F8

 

Unfortunate I do not know how effective the Redtop / Firestreak where successful nor reliable. Same goes for the AA-2/R-3, etc. Where they used on other aircraft in combat? I believe the AIM-9 was used extensively and was fairly successful in several conflicts. Maybe the F-8 on this one?

 

The cannons where used on other aircraft? How effective/reliable where the canons? ( Aden, Mk-12, NR-30)

- Some website say the MIg-21F-13 NR-30 had only 30 rounds, 2 seconds worth of firing, not the best weapon.

- The F8 had 4 Mk-12 with about 140 rounds per gun.

- Not sure about the F6 ADEN cannon

With my understanding, I would say the F8 had a higher volume of fire, increasing its chances to get a hit. Cannons seem unreliable on the period, so with 4 cannons you would have less chance of all 4 jamming ( but it did happened). On paper it would seem the f8 had an advantage but I think is questionable since very few kills in Vietnam where with the cannon when referring to the F8.

 

For radars and other avionics it get confusing and more unreliable. With different website listing different equipment for same models.

 

All three aircraft seem to be very reliable in terms of systems and engines.

 

Training and experience get convoluted and confusing. To many variables specially when looking at the Mgi-21F-13.

 

In terms of number of aircraft available, Mig was surprisingly close to the F-8 ( depending on the specific country air force, I always though there would be twice as many Mig-21), but both outnumbered the Lightning; so they could ,in theory, overwhelm the lightning with numbers.

 

Not sure, what do you guys think?

Edited May 27, 2015 by mvsgas

[Bushranger]

So far, the little information I have found

 

The 20 mm cannons' feeding mechanism was very, very prone to jamming under high G-loading whilst performing high-speed maneuvers, this is probably why it achieved so many kills with its sidewinders. I do believe that you are correct about the F-13 only having thirty round

 

I found some info regarding the Lightnings cannons, they had a capacity of 130 rounds each.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Bushranger

[mvsgas]

Cool, thanks