DCS: F-5E!

[pepin1234]

F-5E fight tested in 1.5 Beta. Extrem dogfight capability. So don't panic the Dogfy is warranty there.

 

[Esac_mirmidon]

IA FM is SFM, so basically they are cheating.

[pepin1234]

IA FM is SFM, so basically they are cheating.

 

I know. Just noticed in the 1.5 beta de F-5E have improved the dogfighting.

[Esac_mirmidon]

The F-5E has a better turn rate than the Mig-21 so the advantage exist. IA or not. Bis has better climb rate and maybe acceleration. So fight in your own terms.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Esac_mirmidon

[Cletust8]

Wing tips only, and no mention of aim9m just up to j

[Kev2go]

Wing tips only, and no mention of aim9m just up to j

 

 

 

don't see why it would only get the aim9j when the f5e tiger 2 was still in service in the 80s when the aim9m was around. Its worth noting that in upgraded forms the F5e is still in service, Switzerland still uses them.

Currently the AI F5E does indeed have the aim9m for use.

Just like the Mig21bis which has various heatseakers avialable including ones such as the r60m which are nearly a decade past its initial service date.

 

However i must agree only 2 missile mounts on wing tips is pretty putrid. what was northrop thinking. 1 pair of the underwing mounts could easily have been modified to arm missiles.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Kev2go

[mattebubben]

Wing tips only, and no mention of aim9m just up to j

 

 

Is there any date given on those papers?

 

And also Thats just for one variant of the F-5E (The E1)

 

There are a very large number of F-5 Variants (depending on the needs of the user)

 

Other F-5Es can use 4 (ive even seen records of atleast one variant with 6 of the pylons being Aim9 Capable)

 

The armament very much depend on the user.

 

If it can use 2 or 4 aim 9s.

 

If it can use AGM65s or just dumb ordnance.

 

More recent ones have also been upgraded to use Aim-120s.

 

And norweigan F-5s (F-5As) where even upgraded to be able to serve in the SEAD role armed with Shrikes and more advanced ECM eqiupment.

 

So armament and capabillity really depends on wich variant / airforce the F-5E belongs to.

 

The Majority(or atleast the first) of the F-5Es that the US ended up using as aggressor aircraft where aircraft that where purchased by and intended for South Vietnam.

 

But when South vietnam fell before all had been deliverd they where instead passed into the US airforce / navy for use as aggressor aircraft.

 

as such this F-5E variant is the first / earliest of the F-5Es produced (with the F-5E entering service in 1972 and since south vietnam recived there first F-5Es in 72 i think they where the first F-5E customer)

 

The F-5E remained in producion untill 1987 so there is alot of differance in F-5Es even if you just go by factory standard and not after production upgrades.

 

The largest Users of the F-5E would probably be Taiwan with around 300 F-5 E/F Aircraft (F-Being the 2 seat variant of the E)

 

followed by South Korea with around 214 aircraft(40 of whom where 2 seaters)

and then Iran with 140 and Saudi Arabia with 110.

 

And all of these nations have had some kind of Upgrades done to there F-5s over time.

 

And of these 4 Taiwan,Iran and south Korea still operate theirs with Saudi arabia replacing theirs with the Eurofighter.

 

Saudi Arabia is even offering 74 of their remaining F-5s up for Sale now to nations operating them.

 

 

And the Reason while the US agressor F-5s might only be able to use the Aim9J or below is because they are such old aircraft that when they first enterd service (intended for vietnam) that was the latest aim-9.

 

And since they have not intended to use there F-5s for actual combat they never upgraded them to use more advanced Aim-9s.

 

While nations that Operated them in the role of a combat aircraft continously upgraded them for the latest Aim-9 avalible be is Aim-9L and then later Aim-9M.

[pepin1234]

Look:

 

The F-5 aircraft was an exported aircraft. While the producer only use this aircraft for fighting training in a relative small number.

 

The F-5E was the main exported variant. Sometimes the customers request upgrades for the purchased and most of the time the upgrades was made for few units inside the bunch delivered. Most of the upgrades have been made in the 90/2000, so if worth the idea to get a fighter of the same era of the Mig-21bis, is ridiculous made a F-5 version/upgrade of the 90s or 2000s.

 

Must be something of the same era production of the Mig-21bis (70s).

[Cletust8]

Manual was from '78

[Zebra288]

Manual was from '78

 

 

Interesting that it doesn't mention the AGM-65A.

 

The USAF used them in 74ish during their trials in Vietnam.

[Paganus]

Unless the aircraft is meant to fit only 1 specific time frame, it is better to make them more capable than less, when it comes to things like load-outs. The F-5E Tiger II for example could fit any mission from 1973 until today.

 

Core system upgrades are a different story. Building a 2nd pit for a modern version with an MFCD would, I'm sure, be a non-starter. I'd like to see more devs take LN's lead on this. In the MiG you have the example of the control panel that is added to the pit when you sling a nuke.

 

That kind of innovation could lead to more versions of a single airframe being possible.

[pepin1234]

Interesting that it doesn't mention the AGM-65A.

 

The USAF used them in 74ish during their trials in Vietnam.

 

We are talking about F-5E (non Maverick carrier by the stock version). The maverick was not used by F-5A in Vientam. The F-4 and A-7 was the aircraft adapted to launch the Maverick in Vietnam.

Edited November 4, 2015 by pepin1234

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

We are talking about F-5E (non Maverick carrier by the stock version). The maverick was not used by F-5A in Vientam. The F-4 and A-7 was the aircraft adapted to launch the Maverick in Vietnam.

 

F-5C, technically. The Skoshi Tigers.

[mattebubben]

Look:

 

The F-5 aircraft was an exported aircraft. While the producer only use this aircraft for fighting training in a relative small number.

 

The F-5E was the main exported variant. Sometimes the customers request upgrades for the purchased and most of the time the upgrades was made for few units inside the bunch delivered. Most of the upgrades have been made in the 90/2000, so if worth the idea to get a fighter of the same era of the Mig-21bis, is ridiculous made a F-5 version/upgrade of the 90s or 2000s.

 

Must be something of the same era production of the Mig-21bis (70s).

 

I agree that they should probably not do a late major F-5E upgrade (Aim-120s etc)

 

But there where plenty of F-5Es that where of an improved standard straight from the factory.

 

And also no matter the F-5E it should be able to carry later Aim9s.

 

Since all F-5s in combat Usage would have the very "minor" upgrades requierd to use the next generation of Aim9s done to them.

 

The mig-21Bis did not have this option since there was no "modern" variant of the K-13 / R-60 from the 80s-later.

 

And the differance from the R-60 to the R-73 was to big to be able to easily modify an aircraft for compatabillity.

 

But the later Aim9s where more or less made to be easily made compatible with aircraft able to carry the older Aim9s.

 

There where also Late 1970s F-5s that could use AGM-65s for example.

 

So all of those "upgrades" are not limited to those made in the 90s or later.

 

Personally i would love to have one of the (Many) variants with 4x Aim-9 pylons.

 

And it would be awsome to have AGM-65 Capabillity but i would be happy even without it.

 

Id just rather see the F-5E as used by one of the major users (Taiwan/Southkorea/Iran/Saudi Arabia/etc)

 

Instead of have it being the US agressor ones.

Edited November 4, 2015 by mattebubben

[pepin1234]

I think everything is possible but by my side I want a F-5 version close to the Vietnam era and close to the Mig-21Bis era. This boy is the F-5E... We always have the personal option to add some mods and make our own national version etc etc.

 

Remember, is very likely for the next near feauture we get the F-4, so with this beast you have enough payload to enjoy the combat, also one F-105 will be great, as well an A-7 by Razbam is on the table.

 

With all this stuff we gone get an amazing Vietnam scenery. SO... Tell me what you gone expect from a F-5, with this view?

[Aginor]

Remember, is very likely for the next near feauture we get the F-4, so with this beast you have enough payload to enjoy the combat,

Wait, what? What makes you think it is likely we get an F-4?

I haven't even read a hint at that.

(I'd love to have one though.)

[WinterH]

Bis is beyond Vietnam era itself, infact service entry date of MiG-21Bis and F-5E is pretty close I guess. Also, R-60M for example, didn't exist in 1972 when Bis first entered service but it was later incorporated on it.

 

Therefore, I think F-5E should ideally have an arsenal starting from AIM-9J, including AIM-9P and AIM-9L & finally M. We already have P & M in sim. It is ok if it can only equip Sidewinders on wingtips, 2 Lima or Mikes are still plenty of air to air firepower against older aircraft. Maverick would be cool but I wouldn't feel too bad if chosen version won't have any mavericks. It looks like F-5 will have GBU-12 option, as well as a surprisingly sizable amount of bombs / rockets, therefore it wouldn't be out of options for air to ground at all.

 

Thinking of a possible multiplayer scenario. BLUE side have a limited number of A-10C to act as forward air controllers / target designators with their TGP. F-5E will be tossing GBUs at supersonic speeds and A-10s lasing them from a standoff position. RED side in turn, are defending against these strikes and trying to intercept and fight A-10C and F-5Es in their MiG-21Bis, while also trying to do some damage on BLUE ground targets. Could be a fun PvP event right? :). Especially with limited aircraft / weaponry available.

[Kev2go]

I agree that they should probably not do a late major F-5E upgrade (Aim-120s etc)

 

But there where plenty of F-5Es that where of an improved standard straight from the factory.

 

And also no matter the F-5E it should be able to carry later Aim9s.

 

Since all F-5s in combat Usage would have the very "minor" upgrades requierd to use the next generation of Aim9s done to them.

 

The mig-21Bis did not have this option since there was no "modern" variant of the K-13 / R-60 from the 80s-later.

 

And the difference from the R-60 to the R-73 was to big to be able to easily modify an aircraft for compatibility.

 

But the later Aim9s where more or less made to be easily made compatible with aircraft able to carry the older Aim9s.

 

There where also Late 1970s F-5s that could use AGM-65s for example.

 

So all of those "upgrades" are not limited to those made in the 90s or later.

 

Personally i would love to have one of the (Many) variants with 4x Aim-9 pylons.

 

And it would be awsome to have AGM-65 Capabillity but i would be happy even without it.

 

Id just rather see the F-5E as used by one of the major users (Taiwan/Southkorea/Iran/Saudi Arabia/etc)

 

Instead of have it being the US agressor ones.

 

 

Agreed, but mostly likely the f5e thats being added is going to be earlier model so it's not too advanced, to attempt to be a balanced match for the mig21bis.

 

there was a modern version the r60. the R60m went into service circa 1982, a year before the aim9m, not that its a missile thats on par with the aim9m, since it lacks full aspect capability, however it can lock from a considerably wider degree of attack compared to the original r60. It can lock from sides even bottom/ top of an aircraft, just not in the front of it.

 

so yes the mig21bis does have a missile past its orginal service date and thus so should the f5e get aim9m, due to the minor upgrades required.

 

either way f5e will still make for a nice tactical fighter bomber, better then the mig21 for sure. looking at the ai f5's arment, IT certainly has a pretty nice bomb load for a light fighter.

 

 

p.s

 

Im not certain was the early versions of the F5E capable of carrying some variant of the Aim7 Sparrow? in its wingtips instead of the Sidewinders?, or was that upgrade in a later period of the 70s or perhas the 80s?

 

Mig21bis has the r3r which is a semi active guided missile, its range isn't much better than IR seekers,( not true bvr missile like the r27) but it still a SA guided missile. If not, kinda sucks if the F5E we only get a heatseaker version for dcs

Edited November 4, 2015 by Kev2go

[mattebubben]

im aware of the R-60M but i do not count that as a "modern" missile as it is not fully all aspect.

 

And as such has severe limitations compared to the Aim9 L or Aim9 M.

 

so while the Mig-21Bis did get an upgraded missile it was not anything near the capabillity of the Aim-9M or R-73.

 

And No the Early F-5E where not capable of using Aim-7s.

 

I actually dont think any variant was (the radar was to small/weak to guide missiles)

 

There are later variants with Aim-120s since those only need to be guided towards the target and then the internal seeker can find/track the enemy itself.

 

But those later variants have much improved Radars (early F-16 level radars)

 

And id have to argue that the Aim-9M is superior to the R-3R when it comes to range / preformance.

 

So having the radar guided missile is not necessarily an advantage for the mig-21.

 

And yes the F-5E should be an "early" model.

 

But kind Depends what one sees as an early model.

 

the First F-5E was produced in 1972 and the last in 1987.

 

So is a Late model F-5 one made in 87 or one of the upgrades in the 90s?

 

and is an early model the one made in 1972 or one of the many export models with more features that where sold to many nations in the late 70s.

 

We will just have to wait and see what Nationality of F-5 they will model.

 

I Personally hope its not the "US" variant

(Those orderd for South Vietnam that ended up in US service)

 

But rather the F-5E in the spec from one of the major operators.

 

Taiwan And South Korea(1 and 2) would be the largest but since Iran/Saudi Arabia are 3-4 and we are getting the gulf map then an Iranian or Saudi F-5E would be very fitting.

Edited November 4, 2015 by mattebubben

[King_Hrothgar]

Bis is beyond Vietnam era itself, infact service entry date of MiG-21Bis and F-5E is pretty close I guess. Also, R-60M for example, didn't exist in 1972 when Bis first entered service but it was later incorporated on it.

 

Therefore, I think F-5E should ideally have an arsenal starting from AIM-9J, including AIM-9P and AIM-9L & finally M. We already have P & M in sim. It is ok if it can only equip Sidewinders on wingtips, 2 Lima or Mikes are still plenty of air to air firepower against older aircraft. Maverick would be cool but I wouldn't feel too bad if chosen version won't have any mavericks. It looks like F-5 will have GBU-12 option, as well as a surprisingly sizable amount of bombs / rockets, therefore it wouldn't be out of options for air to ground at all.

 

Thinking of a possible multiplayer scenario. BLUE side have a limited number of A-10C to act as forward air controllers / target designators with their TGP. F-5E will be tossing GBUs at supersonic speeds and A-10s lasing them from a standoff position. RED side in turn, are defending against these strikes and trying to intercept and fight A-10C and F-5Es in their MiG-21Bis, while also trying to do some damage on BLUE ground targets. Could be a fun PvP event right? :). Especially with limited aircraft / weaponry available.

 

Nah, skip the A-10C and keep it period appropriate instead. F-5E + A-10A + UH-1H vs MiG-21Bis + Su-25A + Mi-8. No AIM9-M's or R-60M's allowed. I think that scenario would be lots of fun assuming the air defenses were on the lower end (ie chapperals and SA-8's) and the targets were fixed bunkers, infantry and light armor (M113's and BMP's).

 

In any case, I don't think the US aggressor ones would be a good one to model. They were not characteristic of the F-5E production line. Instead, they were essentially pre-production prototypes intended for a nation that didn't survive long enough to receive them. The "standard" F-5E, if there ever was such a thing, had an RWR and AGM-65's.

[Cletust8]

The thing that stuck out the most in the USAF '78 manual to me was the lack of rwr.

 

I think the F5e would work well in "Blue Flag" style mp scenarios as a local defense/quick reaction fighter like the 21bis is in the current Blue Flag.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Cletust8

[pepin1234]

The thing that stuck out the most in the '78 manual to me was the lack of rwr.

 

Pfff really. Any picture about this cockpit without RWR?

[Cletust8]

Here it is

[Tarres]

Until BST tell us what F-5E type they are doing, it's better to stay relaxed and wait.

 

The E-1 were upgraded in the begining of the 80's to something like the export F-5's with the -159 radar, RWR and improved radios and ejection seats but they lacked the "Maverick mode" of the CRT and another things The USAF wanted them as an "Agressor" so all other things were not important.

 

So I think it´s better to wait until BST presents the features of the F-5E "sub-variant" that they are making.

 

Regards

Edited November 4, 2015 by Tarres

[ebabil]

the good thing is, bst makes planes quickly, so they won't make us wait soooo long imo