Rudder Discussion

[Yo-Yo]

For instance, the effect ( or lack of it ) mentioned by GT 5.0.

 

A burst of power, and the generated slipstream / propwash on the tail surfaces should make the rudder effective, both right and left, even if not as much as on an aircraft with bigger surfaces.

 

I know differential braking is still, like even on a light PA-18, used as the main form of controlling the aircraft while turning tight on the ground, but it's also obvious, from simple observation of the many sequences available allover the net, that the rudder is also efficient, and used to aid.

 

In the DCS K4, if we give a burst of power, to get some propwash on the tail, we accelerate so fast that we're out of control. When the rudder becomes alive, it's already too late.

 

THe problem is not that the rudder has insufficient downwash and low effectiveness. The problem is that the NEUTRAL POINT for the rudder effectiveness is close to its full right position...

That's why nobody use it in 109 for taxi, just brakes.

[mmaruda]

I voted for the rudder being correct, since as a layman, I cannot really express a vailid opinion one way or the other.

 

However, I DO have a great deal of experience in WWII flight sims, so here is something to think about for all those people who say the rudder authority without applying power is too little. If you compare the DCS 109 to say that of IL2 BOS (or any other plane in there), the rudder authority in DCS is just on a luxury level. In BOS after landing, you need to apply like 30% throttle when stopping so that you do not ground loop. With German planes it's actually easier since differential braking, but yeah, that feels totally weird and completely wrong. That is an issue that was also discussed on the game's forum and guess what, some people claiming to fly taildraggers in real life claimed this is correct.

 

I am not saying this or that game has it better, but a lot of stuff that we a simmers are 'feeling' to be right or wrong might be completely opposite IRL. Probably the best way to go about this is to stick to math calculations.

[Sporg]

THe problem is not that the rudder has insufficient downwash and low effectiveness. The problem is that the NEUTRAL POINT for the rudder effectiveness is close to its full right position...

That's why nobody use it in 109 for taxi, just brakes.

 

This is along what I would answer OP's comment here:

seems odd to me to have NO nose movement to the right with all of that airflow...not even an inch!

 

GT 5.0, the reason you have no movement to the right in your video is twofold:

First of all you turn left first, then without straightening the tail wheel again try to turn right.

If you want to show it properly you must align the tailwheel straight before both attempts to turn.

 

Secondly, in line with what Yo-Yo states, when turning left you have the effect of the propeller turning you left and the rudder at the same time.

 

When trying to turn right you have the propeller turning you left and the rudder counteracting this force.

That means that the forces cancel each other out so that you go straight.

If you did not use right rudder you would go left also.

 

I find that on accelerating to only ~100 Km/h or less you already have enough rudder authority to go slightly right.

Still it is hard for me to accept zero response to that airflow...every action has an reaction they say, so to have nothing raises my eyebrows ...@4:54 that is some turn, I am not able to simulate it

 

also some more for you to ponder here:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4153677/DCS_109_rudder,_turns_and_slat#Post4153677

About the turn at 4:54 I tried to replicate it and I don't see what is so special about it?

Once in the air you have plenty of rudder authority in both directions especially with the engine near idle.

 

To test it out, I also tried applying full rudder in both directions while flying ~350-400 Km/h with ATA 1.2.

The result was that I, in both directions, flew sideways while slowly turning in the direction of the side to which I applied the rudder.

 

Also the effects quoted in the SimHQ videos were possible to make, to apply rudder to point the aircraft away from the centre line for angle shooting.

 

Of course in both instances I needed to counteract rolling with the ailerons, but that should be expected, shouldn't it?

[DieHard]

(re: Message #1)

 

I did not vote as I have no access to a real Me-109. Anybody talk to a real life 109 pilot?

 

What reference(s) are you basing your complaint?

 

You could ask this guy, though not a K4 :

 

17 minutes in, Erich talks about the 190's and the 109's rudder and brakes. More brakes and rudder, starts at 21:45 :

http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/revisiting_dora_part_1/

 

I like this DCS sim aircraft as is, I think it is great. Learning to land this 109, allowed me to finally learn how to successfully land the 190.

 

Just learn to fly the thing within its existing parameters. Like flying the Ka-50, some guys dream up workaround "cheats" (mods) to get what they want.

Edited August 8, 2015 by DieHard

[mmaruda]

Once in the air you have plenty of rudder authority in both directions especially with the engine near idle.

 

This seems consistent. When flying you do have significantly more speed than on the ground, so more air passes around the rudder. It would be interesting to try setting up a mission where you are parked on the runway and have a very strong wind towards the nose. I wonder, if that would increase rudder authority on the ground. Would test it myself, but it's about 36 degrees C here, so no gaming until ambient temps drop. :cry:

 

Again, I do not take any sides in this discussion, just participating out of curiosity.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

- Intentionally left blank -

Edited August 17, 2015 by jcomm

[Pipe]

DCS: Bf 109 K-4 Kurfür

 

 

In order to have the right rudder corrected I think we need to show some numbers of dissatisfied users. So if you have thought's about the right rudder having a lack of authority on the ground please vote and also say a word or two. Or if its fine to you, decribe the why it is...thanks for your community input

 

Not taking sides here but....Having popular opinion about somthing does not make it correct. Back in the day Pythagoras propossed that the earth was round. Popular opinion was that it was NOT. hmm......:music_whistling:

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

THe problem is not that the rudder has insufficient downwash and low effectiveness. The problem is that the NEUTRAL POINT for the rudder effectiveness is close to its full right position...

You mean with the engine at full power, or at idle? .. At what wind speed?:music_whistling:

 

That's why nobody use it in 109 for taxi, just brakes.

You can see in the minute 1:50 of this video, a Bf109G10 with the same rudder area than DCS Bf-109K4, is steering the plane withrudder in taxi, with engine at idle.

If the rudder is unable to steering the plane on ground like you say....why they do use it during the taxi??

 

 

I think that all RL Bf-109 have more rudder authority, with propwash and with wind speed over 30 or 40km/h, than DCS 109K4 today.

 

P.D.

The rudder area of Bf-109K4 is bigger than the Bf-109G2 of the test performed by VVS that you are taking for reference for modeling the K4.

at least 135 mm taller.

And it was equipped with "Flettner tab" a kind of servo-tab capable of lightened the pilot strength in the pedals. :book:

Edited August 9, 2015 by III/JG52_Otto_+

[golani79]

Is is possible that it has something to do with the interaction between the plane and the ground?

 

The ground always seemed a bit too sticky to me - and you even have to get up to ~1800RPM to get the 109 start rolling (not sure if it´s supposed to be that way).

[SlipBall]

Is is possible that it has something to do with the interaction between the plane and the ground?

 

The ground always seemed a bit too sticky to me - and you even have to get up to ~1800RPM to get the 109 start rolling (not sure if it´s supposed to be that way).

 

thats interesting

[NineLine]

You can see in the minute 1:50 of this video, a Bf109G10 with the same rudder area than DCS Bf-109K4, is steering the plane withrudder in taxi, with engine at idle.

If the rudder is unable to steering the plane on ground like you say....why they do use it during the taxi??

 

Well lets play the same game as you, lets just guess at the answer. Hmm they use it out of habit maybe? Maybe every other plane the fly they naturally move the rudder to assist... but as you cant see what else the pilot is doing you cant say for sure that the rudder is moving the plane alone, can you tell me how much brake he is using, maybe he is leaning to one side, all guesses... yet Yo-Yo has repeatedly said he has talk to pilots, current and from WWII... so until you can bring better info, maybe you should just hold up on the comments... Its getting a little old now. I mean its one thing to try and help better the plane, but now its feeling a little desperate.

 

I apologize if you can magically see air flow, and see through the plane to what his feet are doing...

 

The rudder area of Bf-109K4 is bigger than the Bf-109G2 of the test performed by VVS that you are taking for reference for modeling the K4.

at least 135 mm taller.

And it was equipped with "Flettner tab" a kind of servo-tab capable of lightened the pilot strength in the pedals. :book:

 

So the changes to the rudder were for better ground control? I am willing to guess that in 1944, they pretty much had these planes do as little taxiing as possible, the goal was to get up quite when you had hundreds of bombers heading your way, so again, your arguments really dont apply... unless you can show documents saying those changes were to improve taxi, or that they did... which so far we havent seen any info like that....

 

FYI, I watched the vid, at about 1:24 - 1:26 he makes a full rudder move and the plane doesnt turn at all, please explain that.

Edited August 10, 2015 by NineLine

[Crumpp]

You mean with the engine at full power, or at idle? .. At what wind speed?:music_whistling:

 

 

You can see in the minute 1:50 of this video, a Bf109G10 with the same rudder area than DCS Bf-109K4, is steering the plane withrudder in taxi, with engine at idle.

If the rudder is unable to steering the plane on ground like you say....why they do use it during the taxi??

 

 

I think that all RL Bf-109 have more rudder authority, with propwash and with wind speed over 30 or 40km/h, than DCS 109K4 today.

 

P.D.

The rudder area of Bf-109K4 is bigger than the Bf-109G2 of the test performed by VVS that you are taking for reference for modeling the K4.

at least 135 mm taller.

And it was equipped with "Flettner tab" a kind of servo-tab capable of lightened the pilot strength in the pedals. :book:

 

Rudder movement is a consequence of brake application.

[SlipBall]

From my video it should be very clear that our right rudder in game has a serious deficiency...during the test, for it to have no reaction on the fuselage, no movement at all defies the laws of physics. Poke your hand out of a moving car's window feel your arm react to the hands resistance to the wind...

[Solty]

@Otto

 

Breaks are on the rudder pedals so its possible that the turning is made via break usage.

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

Rudder movement is a consequence of brake application.

@Otto

 

]Breaks are on the rudder pedals so its possible that the turning is made via break usage.

 

You are wrong!! No need push full rudder pedal for apply the toe brakes. you never seated in the cockpit of any real airplane with toe brakes? ..please try it before write this silly things.

Edited August 10, 2015 by III/JG52_Otto_+

[Supongo]

Warning, "You are wrong" is Oleg copyright. XDDD

 

Regards

 

Supongo

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

Well lets play the same game as you,

 

FYI, I watched the vid, at about 1:24 - 1:26 he makes a full rudder move and the plane doesnt turn at all, please explain that.

 

...in fact the plane is turning slightly, until the pilot apply brakes.

Edited August 10, 2015 by III/JG52_Otto_+

[otto]

@SiThSpAwN

 

BzUUlO6ihwE

 

What about this video ?

At @ 2.30 i can't see brakes being used because it would make the wheels turn slower .I just don't see that.

But the tail moves .

 

Thx for taking the time to watch this video.

It's a "Canadian" 109 from Ontario :) .

Edited August 10, 2015 by otto

[Crumpp]

You are wrong!! No need push full rudder pedal for apply the toe brakes. you never seated in the cockpit of any real airplane with toe brakes? ..please try it before write this silly things.

 

Some practical experience would help your perspective, Otto. Actually taxing is very different from sitting in the cockpit in the maintenance hanger.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Crumpp

[NineLine]

@SiThSpAwN

 

BzUUlO6ihwE

 

What about this video ?

At @ 2.30 i can't see brakes being used because it would make the wheels turn slower .I just don't see that.

But the tail moves .

 

Thx for taking the time to watch this video.

It's a "Canadian" 109 from Ontario :) .

 

Seriously? Ok... no more. Yo-Yo and ED are happy with how it works, honestly, so am I. Not sure there is much else to say, certainly not going to sit here and exchange wild guesses and theories about how we might think we know whats going on in the video.

[shagrat]

From my video it should be very clear that our right rudder in game has a serious deficiency...during the test, for it to have no reaction on the fuselage, no movement at all defies the laws of physics. Poke your hand out of a moving car's window feel your arm react to the hands resistance to the wind...

So you know better than WWII pilot Erich Brunotte? Really?:doh:

[NineLine]

Guys, I am only opening for discussion of real data. Nothing else. If it degrades again, or if real data cant be submitted in an adult manner, I'll shut it down again. Right now I dont see any real issue with the rudder performance beyond what we know is coming in patches, such as stiffening.

Edited August 12, 2015 by NineLine