TM Cougar Center Spring Mod

[KeyCat]

After trying my luck in DCS Huey I'm really tired of the stiff springs in my 600+ USD moded Cougar since they are really and always been horrible when flying helis or WWI/WWII planes that requires smooth control input!

 

Several years ago I contacted TM and asked why they didn't sold a few different springs like 50% and 25% force of the original springs as spare parts but they where not interested to help.

 

I know some of you extended the stick to get better feeling but paying 100+ USD for an extension or a new gimbal for even more USD for a already (to) expensive HOTAS is not an option for me, so I have decided to try to solve this in the easiest and cheapest way possible!

 

The idea is to replace the stiff original X/Y springs with a single conical spring in the center like Saitek have in their design. That also solves the uneven force required to move X/Y or diagonaly see picture below.

 

Cougar Center Spring Mod

 

I have contacted a spring manufacturer here in Sweden willing to manufacure it but they (as everyone else) hav a 250+ pcs minimum quantity so I wanted to hear how big the interest is for this mod?

 

Of course the big problem will be to get all the dimensions etc. correct and test out the spring for smooth control. They have promised to help me with that and that I can pay from my own pocket but I only need <5 and not 250+ pcs.

 

If you would be interested of this mod or have other toughts please post in this thread. My goal is to keep it as cheap as possible and it will take <30 seconds to install.

 

I hope to be able to give an estimated cost per spring within a few weeks.

 

 

/KC

Edited July 28, 2015 by KeyCat

[Sokol1_br]

Why not new light custom springs for you MOD (UberNXT?)?

 

http://www.centuryspring.com/Products/custom.php?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=brCustom&gclid=CPX2xfzJ_sYCFYIGkQodBAUIgw

 

This custom joystick use spring similar to you idea:

 

 

Latter was changed for dampers (R/C):

 

 

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3846/14261506788_c8fc5b0468_c.jpg

 

The gimbal is a U-Joint (motorciclye I think).

[Scudslaker]

Are gimbals in general or any mods still available?

[KeyCat]

Thansk for the input Sokol.

 

Why not new light custom springs for you MOD (UberNXT?)?).

 

The mod I have is the "Uber Gimbal" + hall sensors and was among the first with ballbearings and a reinforced original gimbal so no options for strait springs.

 

This custom joystick use spring similar to you idea:

 

 

Latter was changed for dampers (R/C):

 

 

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3846/14261506788_c8fc5b0468_c.jpg

 

The gimbal is a U-Joint (motorciclye I think).

 

My idea was not a DYI stick but to use all the original Cougar parts (except the rubber cover) and just remove the original stiff springs and then have one center spring for smooth control input between the casing and the lower edge of the handle screw (my poor picture probably explains it better).

 

A center spring also solves the second issue with Cougar and it's original springs and that is the uneven force required to move the stick X/Y or diagonaly

 

It may be hard to find 250 interested Cougar owners but if most wants a couple of spare springs like myself it's down to ~83 people to make this happen and that doesn't sounds to bad.

 

Are gimbals in general or any mods still available?

 

I think you still can get the "U2nxt Gimbal" but be prepared to sell one of your kidneys ;)

 

/KC

Edited July 29, 2015 by KeyCat

[Sokol1_br]

My idea was not a DYI stick but to use all the original Cougar parts (except the rubber cover) and just remove the original stiff springs and then have one center spring for smooth control input between the casing and the lower edge of the handle screw (my poor picture probably explains it better).

 

Yes, I show this DIY because the guy use the compression spring like in the way that want to use - above the gimbal - but later find dampers more suitable for heli' control.

 

Originally Posted by Scudslaker View Post

Are gimbals in general or any mods still available?

 

The gimbal MOD for Cougar now "is history", but Bauer or VKB gimbals kits are suitable (ball bearings, laser metal parts or aluminum CNC, replaceable springs - 2 per axis).

[debolestis]

Hi. I have found a Company here in Croatia that produce springs. And you can order just one. Price depends on dimensions but probably from 5 to 10 Euros. I can order this for you. Send me PM if you are interested.

[KeyCat]

That sounds very interesting debolestis! I will shoot you a PM when I have experimented a bit. Ordered som generic strait springs just to get a feel for the force needed and try to figure out best material to be used.

 

Appreciate the input guys!

 

/KC

[KeyCat]

Got generic strait springs (to small) but managed to buy two (only ones they had!) conical springs from a local mech shop that I hoped to be able to adjust to fit.

 

Due to the size of these springs I couldn't mount them under the big handle screw as planned, instead I had to mount them below that. I think a larger spring mounted the way I planned in the first place will be even better.

 

After some bending and cutting I managed to get one spring that fitted "so so" since the spring doesn't have full turns at the ends due to me shortenening and widening both ends.

 

I also made a base protection to prevent the spring to dig into the base using a DVD case that I cut to size with a sharp X-acto knife. Unfortunately I shaved of 1-2 mm to much on one side so I had to be creative with straps to make one of the coil turns to stay in place.

 

The base protection (and tension on the straps) is hold in place by the ring. It's far from pretty but the feeling on the workbench is totally different than the IHMO crappy original springs.

 

The stick is relly easy to move in any direction and my hope is to finally be able to fly by my "fingertips". It's not perfect using this spring and Y- have a bit less range (~2-3 mm) than Y+ but I plan to redo the straps and hopefully improve it.

 

Below are a couple of pictures and if anyone is interested I can upload some more. Haven't calibrated it yet and hope to get some time this week. Will fly with this for a few weeks and let you know how it works in the Huey/Mi-8 and CloD...

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v54oejq29tqeszi/CSSM%20-%20Spring%20and%20Plate.jpg?dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n2ixwkw5rg75og5/CSSM%20-%20Mounted.jpg?dl=0

 

@debolestis: Hopefully this will help me figure ut the best coil size, turns etc. I will keep you posted and thanks for offering your help!

 

/KC

Edited August 5, 2015 by KeyCat

[debolestis]

No problem. Just let me know when you need it.

[PoleCat]

I would really like to obtain lighter versions of the stock Cougar springs. I also have the Uber mod that uses the stock springs.

 

Does anyone have any ideas on how I might find lighter versions of the originals? I would be happy with a similar feel to the original, just requiring less force to move the stick.

 

Thanks for any suggestions you might have.

 

Out

[KeyCat]

From one cat to another ;)

 

I've been looking for lighter springs many time during the past 3-4 years but always came up empty handed!

 

It would be very easy for TM to offer a few differerent springs as optional parts for a reasonable price since there have been quite a few complaints on the stock springs

 

Lets say 25%, 50% and 75% force required but they was not interested when I suggested that many years ago :/

 

Now I finally got tired of the situation that I had to use another joystick when I had a modded 600+ USD HOTAS sitting beside me so I decided to try to fix it in cheapest possible way with a center spring.

 

I have just briefly tested it in the Huey and even if this initial spring is not perfect it suits my style much better. I also noticed that the play - even if it wasn't to bad on my Cougar with fresh stock springs - is totaly gone, I can't even feel a hint of play when moving the stick!

 

/KC

Edited August 5, 2015 by KeyCat

[KeyCat]

Trying to decide dimensions as well as height of the spring I have a question regarding the spring diameter at the base...

 

To explain what I mean see the following pictures and forgive my crappy drawing skills.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d0ken3qt9ngi7zm/wide_narrow_base%201.jpg?dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/61fx9r5n8qnjs6t/wide_narrow_base%202.jpg?dl=0

 

What do you think would be the best option for the base diameter, a wide one or a narrow one or maybe it doesn't matter much?

 

As I see it the wider base would be the prefered option and easiest to mount/fixate since the stock metal ring prevents it from moving around, any thoughts?

 

/KC

[PoleCat]

I would go with the easiest option for sure. So all that would need to be done is to install this and remove the existing springs? Sounds pretty good to me. Hoping it will center well, that is important. I have other modded Cougars including the NXT mod which is my favorite. I use it with the lighter of the two spring options and it requires little force, moves like a dream, and centers perfectly. If this mod can do the same I am in for two or three of these.

 

Thanks for the efforts.

 

Out

[KeyCat]

I agree - KISS is always better. The "proof of concept" I have now required me to disassemble the stick to fit this spring between the base and the "neck" of the joystick holder.

 

Best and easiest would be a bigger diameter on the spring so it could be mounted between the base and the grove in the grey collar instead.

 

/KC

[Prophet]

Not only could I use some lighter springs, but some spares. Broke one in my NXT and didn't know it used stock springs. But luckily the builder had a couple to send me.

[PoleCat]

I'm also looking for lighter springs and I suspect that more than just a few Cougar HOTAS sticks would come out of retirement if we found a solution that worked.

 

I was poking around on http://www.allrite.com/inventory/design-a-spring/torsion-spring-calculator with the idea that maybe we can find lighter torsion springs that are close enough in dimensions to do the trick.

 

Set the parameters to:

wire diameter 0.08

inside diameter 0.56

free position 0

active coils 2

leg length 1.2

helix rh

(part T055208020R12)

 

and you'll get a spring that gradually increases to about 3.75 lb of force at max stick deflection. It will also likely have very little of that notchiness on x/y crossover, but the trade off is that the force at center is very light so it will probably feel a little sloppy/vague right around the center. This could be desirable in some cases and the increase in force as deflection increases will feel natural and closer to stock in that regard. This should be very easy to install with no apparent modifications needed.

 

Set the parameters to:

wire diameter 0.06

inside diameter 0.54

free position 270

active coils 4.75

leg length 1

helix rh

(part T154810048R10)

 

and you'll get a spring with a center force of about 3.5 lbs or roughly half what I estimate the stock spring to be. This will introduce some of the same crossover notchiness that the stock spring exhibits, albeit a bit reduced since the center force is less, and the center will be more exact and precise, but the trade-off is that there is very little increase in force with stick deflection. At max deflection it's about 3.7 lbs, so the stick will feel light once the centering inertia is overcome. This one might require slightly altering the bushing that the spring sits on, it seems like a tight fit.

 

These are the only non-custom torsion springs that I can find that should work for the dimensions we need and should be roughly 40-50% of the stock spring values as far as I can estimate.

 

I'm going to do a little more research before I bite the bullet and order some springs to test (minimum order of $35/spring size + $10 shipping = $70 just to test springs, not terrible, but definitely not cheap) but I wanted to put this information out to you guys to check if it makes sense and jives with what you know about the springs.

 

Thanks.

 

This is more or less exactly what I am looking for. If we can find five other Cougar users to split the cost of say 10 springs it should not be too painful financially. I am in if it helps. And thanks for posting this. Rep inbound. :)

 

Out

Edited September 9, 2015 by PoleCat

[PoleCat]

I was able to order a couple springs of different weight at a lower cost. Not exactly what we need and probably not useful to anyone with non-stock gimbals but it will help me figure out the weight that we need before ordering the torsion springs I mentioned above. I'll let you all know how it goes once they get here.

 

Thanks gongo,

 

I have a few Cougars so I will probably be looking to buy 10 springs. Please keep me posted on your results. :thumbup:

 

Out

[CyStryker]

Gents:

 

I have located a USA company that sells ... the Hall effect Sensors used in the Uber2Nxt mod... I am attempting to verify today.. How did you locate the builder of the uber2nxt... I thought he is just rebuilding his site to start production again...... I need to ask him to verify the Midori are the correct ones.......... QP-2H single shaft......... the shaft looks different than the ones shown at Cougar World...

 

Let me know on the springs....... I just looked at my Uber2Nxt and it uses four springs........

 

Roland

[CyStryker]

Gents:

 

I have just flashed the firmware into the Cougar...... on a WIndows XP system....... Tried b4.. but can not get the HOTAS to work in Win 10 system.. any ideas...

 

Roland

[PoleCat]

Gents:

 

I have just flashed the firmware into the Cougar...... on a WIndows XP system....... Tried b4.. but can not get the HOTAS to work in Win 10 system.. any ideas...

 

Roland

 

Try following these instructions.......it should get you there.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1177092&postcount=32

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=809817&postcount=5

 

Out

Edited September 18, 2015 by PoleCat

[Stefem]

Gents:

 

I have located a USA company that sells ... the Hall effect Sensors used in the Uber2Nxt mod... I am attempting to verify today.. How did you locate the builder of the uber2nxt... I thought he is just rebuilding his site to start production again...... I need to ask him to verify the Midori are the correct ones.......... QP-2H single shaft......... the shaft looks different than the ones shown at Cougar World...

 

Let me know on the springs....... I just looked at my Uber2Nxt and it uses four springs........

 

Roland

 

The correct one is the QP-2HC, the QP-2H has a double shaft (front and rear) while the correct is single shafted.

Can you tell me how much they ask?

I was in contact with Ian, the Über2Nxt maker, and found a source for the sensors.

Another guy started collecting orders for sensors, Über2Nxt and other parts because Ian ask for a minimum quantity to start production but they done it at the http://www.frugalsrefugees.com forum but the site went down last year.

I'm still interested in some parts and if other are interested too we can try to rise rise orders and reach a reasonable amount for Ian to produce.

I've attached the files that describe all the parts that Ian makes.

 

P.S.

Ok, I just managed (unexpectedly) do get the file where he annotated the orders nicely along with forums name so I may be able to contact them to see if they still interested.

Nxt.zip

Edited October 14, 2015 by Stefem