My P-51 White Whale - Beating the Bf-109-K One on One.

[Zilch]

After a few months of playing other games, I'm back in my Mustang's seat looking to branch out into making myself a better dogfighter by fighting against increasingly difficult enemies.

 

So far I've been able to bag the FW-190, MiG-15 and L-39 by using sound tactics and common sense. I start each combat 1.5 miles away, head on, at 20,000 feet.

 

However, the Bf-109-K just won't die. Further, once it's on my tail, the most I can do is break away, only for a few seconds, before he catches up and then, it's just a matter of life extension before a maximum of 4 rounds of 30mm cannon ends my Mustang.

 

It may be irrational, but I think there has to be some way to reliably beat the 109-K from the seat of the Mustang aside from just getting lucky. I've tried boom-n-zoom, which lasts for a few passes before he does an impossible turn and latches on to my six. I've tried breaking for the deck and using mountains as cover and possible ambush sites, but he just pops up over these and keeps eyes on until he runs me down. I've tried turning, but that obviously ended badly. Head-on passes have minimal effect since apparently it takes between 75 and 150 rounds of .50 to shoot anything down, compared to his 4 30mm cannon rounds. He has the advantage there, too.

 

This, to me, is not a complaint, but a challenge. There has to be a way to manage this with some degree of reliability, one on one.

 

Has anyone else managed this, and, if so, what tactics did you use? I've seen a couple of videos but without the explanation of tactical theory, it's hard to know what's going on from cockpit POV.

 

I'd love to crack this nut!

[Decibel dB]

I ear you m8, the 109 is superior in speed, turn, and climb rate. That make him a formidable opponent, the only way I manage is with a altitude advantage and I mean a big one. Dive get your shot or not then extend and climb back. No dog fight

[DSR_T-800]

I was dog fighting a couple of JG clan members in their K4s and Fw-190D9s at once, it was a free for all. I've noticed the P-51 with some flaps seems to have no problem turning inside of a Bf-109. But of course the only thing a Bf-109K4 pilot has to do out run you, out climb you or engage flaps as well. What I've noticed is that my P-51D, even with the radiator open, I was able to easily outdive the Bf-109. The Bf-109 was chasing me in a dive and he was slowing down while I was still accelerating. That means a lot when it comes to BNZ dogfighting. But I haven't played to much against the Bf-109K4 so I don't know how well it would be to BNZ the Bf-109K4. I can only imagine if the Bf-109K4 knows you're BNZing, its only going to make you pull maneuvers to bring you down to his speed.

 

When you say One on One, do you mean the same odds? Or are you starting with the advantage of altitude or speed? IMO, if its just a One on One there is not a chance of killing Bf-109 pilot that knows what they are doing.

 

When they said they were developing the Bf-109K4, I knew that was end game for the P-47D-30 and P-51D. IMO, the Bf-109 is superior to the American planes at lower altitude, which is where all the dog fighting is in the game. I think when they release some AI B-17s to defend at high altitude, the P-51D and P-47D will start to even out grounds with the Bf-109 and easily out preform the Fw-190D9. The Spitfire seems to be the only counter to the Bf-109K4 with its superior rate of climb and turning radius. The only advantage the Bf-109K4 would have is its much greater speed, which would still make it very competitive. The P-47D-30 would even stand a chance against any of the aircraft at low altitude, and they would only be butchering it further if they made the pylons permanent.

I would love to know how you fight a Fw-190D9.

[Paradox]

Fly ultra high and run him out of fuel?

[fastfreddie]

I would take any dogfight against AI aircraft with a grain of salt. They don't have the same damage model as player flown aircraft so that one round to the engine or radiator that brings down a player won't against the AI. The AI also seems to fly the every aircraft to its absolute stall limit which won't happen in real life servers against other players. Use practicing against AI as more of a target practice and familiarization of the aircraft that what you will see online against people. The pilots you face online won't be similar to the ones faced in the war either ... most will have more flight time in this sim than the real pilots of the K-4. That part of history DCS probably won't be able to change but it is best to learn against other pilots.

[BravoM5]

Yea, I've tried to beat the AI 109 K4 numerous times in the editor with the P-51. It's just a superior aircraft I guess. I have been able to hit it some, but it seems to be pretty tough, I usually can't get very many shots into it since I can't ever seem to get very close to it. Like the others have said it can outmaneuver, out-climb, and out-turn the P-51.

[Solty]

For now Bf109K4 still has not been fixed and is overperforming in climb rate and compound with that probably acceleration, it also lacks proper rudder forces giving it way too good roll rate for a 109 close to what Dora can do.

 

Even if you would put AI Fw190D9 vs Bf109K4, the 190 will go down in flames.

 

If its 1v1 PvE then I would suggest you fly against "good" AI setting for the 109. It makes it a little more realistic when it comes to the maneuvering it can do. Still ROC will be like a rocket and will maneuver bellow 250kph, but it will be more feasible to destroy it.

 

In PvP the 109 does everything better at low alt than the P-51D for now (still waiting for that 44-1 fuel :P) What I would suggest is to attack from blindspots from perfect convergence. The P51 can follow the 109 at most ranges in turns though esspecially with flaps down, so try using that to your advantage. Make it quick though, the longer the fight the more 109 gains.

[Decibel dB]

I would take any dogfight against AI aircraft with a grain of salt. They don't have the same damage model as player flown aircraft so that one round to the engine or radiator that brings down a player won't against the AI.

 

Really? That make sense now, anyone know if the issue as been raise to fix it?

 

o7

[Decibel dB]

The pilots you face online won't be similar to the ones faced in the war either ... most will have more flight time in this sim than the real pilots of the K-4. That part of history DCS probably won't be able to change but it is best to learn against other pilots.

 

I still can't get proper performance online, let alone the spotting issue. Fortunately in September this will change

[NineLine]

Realize as well that the 109 is still in beta, that some of the fixes might not have merged over from internal versions. I hope 1.5 will bring more of these refinements to us.

[DSR_T-800]

Okay, after flying some P-51 against the Bf-109K4 AI, I've found out that the P-51 can out dive and out zoom the K4 quite easily. When I'm zooming I find that closing my coolant radiator increases the zoom and dive advantage gap further. Personally I've got a crappy ass setup, so my gunnery skills are beyond terrible. But I've put myself in multiply situations within one battle where the K4 was at lower speeds and I was diving on him. I'm pretty sure I would of been able to kill him with a better joystick and some rudder pedals, but unfortunately I just couldn't land a lethal shot. Even if I did land a couple of hits, it wouldn't do anything because it was single player. If it were multiplayer, the player would be experiencing all sorts of engine problems, hopefully. So I think my theory would work out even better against a real player. Its not really my theory, its just PURE BNZ. Always keep the fight at high speeds unless you are pulling off a hammer head, immelmann or vertical reversal. Never ever stay close to a K4 unless you are trying to shoot it. I try to gain separation from the K4 before making any maneuvers, which is usually around 1.5-2km away. At Equal ALT and Energy coming straight on at each other. The first thing you want to do is go into a slight dive and gain some speed. As you pass the K4 try to gain some distance.

 

1, If the K4 does a split S, this just makes things easier. Follow number 3.

 

2, If the K4 turns and burns, this just makes things easier. Follow number 3.

 

3, if the K4 pulls up into an aggressive climb, pull up into a 45 degree angle zoomclimb until you hit 400kph. Then do a vertical reversal. You should be slightly higher than him, but he should be heading directly towards you. Try your best to avoid the head on, and dive under him. At this moment the K4 is too slow to do a immelmann, but is still capable of doing a turn or a split S to gain some speed. But right now regardless of what move he makes, you should be faster than him. Gain some distance, do another vertical reversal, and you should be almost 150kph faster than him. Dive under him again then gain distance and you should be almost 2km away from him. Do another vertical reverse, avoid head on, but this time slowly pull up into a steep 90 degree. Stall out, nose down, drop some flaps, fire. A this moment he should be just stalling out, in a perfect scenario, you should be able to see the top of his aircraft. In multiplayer hopefully you should be able to destroy something vital so he loses performance dramatically. Then the fight is yours.

 

I don't know the top speed of the Bf-109K4 at SL, but the Mustang has a top speed of 590kph and 612kph with the coolant radiator closed. I was able to push the 1650-7 for ~6 minutes at 67"Hg with coolant radiator closed before the engine blew. Usually BNZ becomes easier when you are heavier and faster than your enemy.

 

SL-590, 612

2750m, Low blower- 650, 666

7500m,High blower- 706, the engine died after 30 seconds with coolant radiator closed.

 

I've got a really crappy Joystick, so your speeds may be up to a couple of kph faster than my results.

[shadepiece]

I just got into DCS, and I have to say I had no issues with the P-51D, or the Dora, but the Kürfurst has been kicking my butt. I agree with the White Whale description!!

[BSS_Sniper]

I just got into DCS, and I have to say I had no issues with the P-51D, or the Dora, but the Kürfurst has been kicking my butt. I agree with the White Whale description!!

 

Its because the 109 climbs about 1500 fpm to fast and IIRC the damage model is a off. I'm sure you've noticed how many rounds it takes to kill, even if you hit the radiator, it never runs out of water. There is a fix coming, but until then, expect over performance from the 109.

[WildBillKelsoe]

you do realise the P-51D stalls lower than Bf-109K? Its not with AI at the moment I'm afraid, but a video I saw a veteran describing how he used this in the vertical (and it sounded really stupid but more of a last resort tactic), where the 109 would stall and plummet first the 51 would follow reversing the roles. I don't think this EVER happened in real life. The German fighter must be rookie, out of options, or stupid to follow him into the vertical, at least he bluffed him for ascension for energy re-banking, but I'd never do it.

 

If you are talking versus humans the whole thing differs. I haven't tried it personally except on DCS Israel server and got my ass constantly kicked by 190s!!!! Imagine that!!

 

The human factor is alot to consider.

 

I'd dodge fighting AI unless I have 3 more AI friendlies flying with me. That way I can have them kick him or control them so I kick him.

[Smitty]

Just to be sure...are you guys talking about the expert AI, or just any AI level? Especially since the 1.5 beta, I haven't really had too much trouble with the 109 in average or good difficulty. It seems like you can out turn him with good use of flaps and if you time your rolls well, you can keep him from staying in the plane of your turns well enough to cause a break long enough to extend away.

[Zilch]

Serious necro-post here, but I finally did it! Playlist below, if anyone is interested. It has some practice sessions in it and I talk a bit about what I'm changing in my tactics as I go through it. Maybe it'll help someone else and even things up a bit against those pesky Kurfursts on the servers.

 

 

Once I figured a few things out, like using my roll rate to evade and how to manage my engine better, things got far easier. Instead of an impossible god machine, the 109K now feels like a difficult opponent that is beatable, but only if you are flying correctly.

 

There is still more to learn, so any tips or advice, no matter how brutal, is appreciated.

[=Thrust=]

Since lot of patches Ai Skill decrease each day. On each aircraft. What a pity

[BSS_Sniper]

I would take any dogfight against AI aircraft with a grain of salt. They don't have the same damage model as player flown aircraft so that one round to the engine or radiator that brings down a player won't against the AI. The AI also seems to fly the every aircraft to its absolute stall limit which won't happen in real life servers against other players. Use practicing against AI as more of a target practice and familiarization of the aircraft that what you will see online against people. The pilots you face online won't be similar to the ones faced in the war either ... most will have more flight time in this sim than the real pilots of the K-4. That part of history DCS probably won't be able to change but it is best to learn against other pilots.

 

I agree with this, except trying to fool yourself about more sim flight time than a real 109 pilot's actual. No amount of untrained sim time is worth even a single actual flight time by a professional. If you took most of the DCS pilots that aren't actual pilots in real life and put them in a real plane, they'd probably get themselves killed. More bad habits are learned in here if you've never been trained than anything useful.

[Solty]

I agree with this, except trying to fool yourself about more sim flight time than a real 109 pilots actual. No amount of untrained sim time is worth even a single actual flight time by a professional. If you took most of the DCS pilots that aren't actual pilots in real life and put them in a real plane, they'd probably get themselves killed. More bad habits are learned in here if you've never been trained than anything useful.

 

There are RL pilots that do not understand that pulling on the stick at low speed won't move your airplane upwards. In fact I saw a instructional video that said it is one of the most pilot killing accidents.

 

A real life pilot seeing a mountain and pulling on the stick to get over it, while he is unable to ascend. What does he do? Pulls more, stalls and dies.

 

Just being a pilot doesn't make one Chuck Yeager.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Solty

[DefaultFace]

Just being a pilot doesn't make one Chuck Yeager.

+1

[BravoFoxTrt]

Zilch. I watched your Vid, Congrats on the Kill. Im doing every thing wrong in the Mustang, I used to fly it a lot in IL2 1946, But DCS in comparison is night and day. Man I have much to learn. Thanks for sharing your Kill.:thumbup:

[Zilch]

Zilch. I watched your Vid, Congrats on the Kill. Im doing every thing wrong in the Mustang, I used to fly it a lot in IL2 1946, But DCS in comparison is night and day. Man I have much to learn. Thanks for sharing your Kill.:thumbup:

 

Hey, thanks for watching! I'm glad it was worthwhile to someone.

 

Next up, I'll probably spend time in PVP and crank up the AI skill!