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ILS Landing Help


TylerTheHottie

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Sorry I made two threads about this, realized I didnt title my thread the way I want...So I am in my 2nd month of dcs a10c, very great game. All i have been doing are training missions. Mostly because Im not yet comfortable yet with going on actual missions. One such area of unease for me is the landing aspect of this simulator. Ive read what the manual has to offer and I have done the training mission as well but i just dont think that it is explained well enough, at least not in the detail that I would like . Hoping one of you veterans out there can shed some light.

 

Question/questions: When I start my CDU divert to access the desired airport that I want Im confused at the part after I receive my radio bearing. For one, just to be clear when the ATC says heading "34" what number is that? is that 340? Or is that actually 34? Ill often find myself in headings contrary to what I would want because Ive either literally taken the numbers as they are or Ive translated them into what I thought.

 

2nd question: When I somehow do receive the correct heading im often left puzzeled as to when Im supposed to turn in. the heading that the ATC gives me is not exactly the same as the straight shot heading that I receive after the cdu divert waypoint. Am I supposed to use the HSI and align myself when the hsi indicators match up???? Am i being too technical about this or is it more apt to say...base my navigation upon a visual once i get to the airbase

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I was struggling with this last week (this is my second month also) so please correct me if I'm wrong people. 34 is 340, 25.6 is 256, etc. ATC headings will bring you about 2 NM out from the airfield. You should be able to spot it visually from there. As far as turning in I find it has been best when I see the air field at my 3 or 9 o'clock. I try to be at about 2500' then. I'm sure they are calling a heading and a distance, but I haven't gotten the distance traveled down just yet.

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I was struggling with this last week (this is my second month also) so please correct me if I'm wrong people. 34 is 340, 25.6 is 256, etc. ATC headings will bring you about 2 NM out from the airfield. You should be able to spot it visually from there. As far as turning in I find it has been best when I see the air field at my 3 or 9 o'clock. I try to be at about 2500' then. I'm sure they are calling a heading and a distance, but I haven't gotten the distance traveled down just yet.

 

Thank you for the clarification. Another thing that you may be able to shed some light on is that in the landing training mission they had me set the bearing of the hsi at somepoint, in that particular example they told me to set it to the runway which was 13 so the instructor had me set it to 130. Your thoughts on that exactly? Im not sure when to do that because when I have attempted to do it ive messed up the hsi lines and it gave me different heading....

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I've been setting that for anytime I want to fly a particular heading accurately. So, I'm given an approach vector and it's a long way off. There are so many shiny things between here and there I'm likely to forget where I'm going, I'll set my hsi for my approach vector and later change it to my runway heading. It does seem to pin to the side sometimes though.


Edited by mudfysh
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ATC sucks at the moment. A rational person would ignore it. You don't need the ATC to learn to land and it'll only confuse you.

 

In real life ATC under visual conditions would likely give you vectors to a point where you could both see the runway and then fly by your own decision making to a landing. Under instrument conditions it would give you vectors to intercept the ILS. Current ATC does nothing resembling real ATC.

Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.

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Question/questions: When I start my CDU divert to access the desired airport that I want Im confused at the part after I receive my radio bearing. For one, just to be clear when the ATC says heading "34" what number is that? is that 340? Or is that actually 34?

 

 

Hi,

 

Example Batumi

 

Have a look at Batumi on page 17

\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Doc\Charts\DCS_GND_Charts.pdf

 

Runway 13 : 126°T true heading -> "rounded" 13

Important for us is the magnetic heading : 120° !!!

 

Runway 31 : 306°T true heading -> "rounded" 31

Magnetic heading : 300°

 

 

Batumi - ATC : 131.0

Call ATC Batumi

F1 : Inbound

 

ATC-Answer

"ATC (callsign Batumi): Enfield 1-1, fly heading 314 for 50, QFE 29.89., to pattern altitude"

314 = 314°

50 = 50 nm

QFE 29.89 - set on altimeter gauge

to pattern altidude = ca. 2000 ft AGL and a speed < 250 - in a distance of ca. 5 nm in front of the runway

 

 

Fly heading 314° (in this example)

The distance is not so important - the end point is 5 - 10 nm roundabout the airport

 

Select a map scale of 10 on the TAD

airplane symbol - inner circle = 5 nm

airplane symbol - outer circle = 10 nm

 

 

If on course, the ATC comes per automatic ( in a distance of 5 - 10 nm roundabout the airport )

 

"ATC (callsign Batumi) : Enfield 1-1, cleared for visual, contact tower"

 

F1. Request landing

 

The correct heading for runway 13 is 120°

 

 

You can exercise it without using DIVERT and Batumi as steerpoint

Try it at day / at night

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Yeah, ILS can be tricky. Not all runways have ILS and those that do, not all have it in both directions. The Mission Editor map shows them when they do. Also, some have landing beacons and some don't (they will beep at you when you have ILS set to runway and are at a set distance from the runway threshold; don't remember exact distance. I believe Gerry Abbot has a few videos on youtube showing how to navigate and use ILS. Very good videos. I practiced doing ILS landings, crashing a lot, but that first time I ALMOST hit the runway (about a wing length too far right) in full fog was an awesome feeling. :)

 

my first IFR landing (w/o crashing):

(note: I flew the landing as normal, then went back in during review and moved the camera to catch my landing; I used only analog and ILS as you can see the HUD is off)

 

Gerry's vid:


Edited by Evil.Bonsai
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Hi,

 

Example Batumi

 

Have a look at Batumi on page 17

\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Doc\Charts\DCS_GND_Charts.pdf

 

Runway 13 : 126°T true heading -> "rounded" 13

Important for us is the magnetic heading : 120° !!!

 

Runway 31 : 306°T true heading -> "rounded" 31

Magnetic heading : 300°

 

 

Batumi - ATC : 131.0

Call ATC Batumi

F1 : Inbound

 

ATC-Answer

"ATC (callsign Batumi): Enfield 1-1, fly heading 314 for 50, QFE 29.89., to pattern altitude"

314 = 314°

50 = 50 nm

QFE 29.89 - set on altimeter gauge

to pattern altidude = ca. 2000 ft AGL and a speed < 250 - in a distance of ca. 5 nm in front of the runway

 

 

Fly heading 314° (in this example)

The distance is not so important - the end point is 5 - 10 nm roundabout the airport

 

Select a map scale of 10 on the TAD

airplane symbol - inner circle = 5 nm

airplane symbol - outer circle = 10 nm

 

 

If on course, the ATC comes per automatic ( in a distance of 5 - 10 nm roundabout the airport )

 

"ATC (callsign Batumi) : Enfield 1-1, cleared for visual, contact tower"

 

F1. Request landing

 

The correct heading for runway 13 is 120°

 

 

You can exercise it without using DIVERT and Batumi as steerpoint

Try it at day / at night

 

Thank you this helps

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Yeah, ILS can be tricky. Not all runways have ILS and those that do, not all have it in both directions. The Mission Editor map shows them when they do. Also, some have landing beacons and some don't (they will beep at you when you have ILS set to runway and are at a set distance from the runway threshold; don't remember exact distance. I believe Gerry Abbot has a few videos on youtube showing how to navigate and use ILS. Very good videos. I practiced doing ILS landings, crashing a lot, but that first time I ALMOST hit the runway (about a wing length too far right) in full fog was an awesome feeling. :)

 

my first IFR landing (w/o crashing):

(note: I flew the landing as normal, then went back in during review and moved the camera to catch my landing; I used only analog and ILS as you can see the HUD is off)

 

Gerry's vid:

 

Is there a reason you would have the HUD off?

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Probably because it's harder that way. With hud, really it's just about placing VV to -3 degrees and you've done the job.

 

I watched the video, few tips:

 

You can turn off bipping sound as soon as you identify a navaid (there should be a red flag at HSI if you loose signal, so there's no point listening that annoying sound).

 

You can practice without flight director (yellow ADI steering bars) for pure raw data ILS.

 

You should never go under GS, that's an instant failure at instrument rating exam, and for a good reason: you can kill yourself.

 

Multiply your ground speed with 5.4 and you will get rate of descend you should fly to stay on 3* glide slope.

 

Try to achieve landing configuration at or above 1000ft AGL.

 

You can practice localizer approach only, which is useful when ED breaks glide slopes in some update :D. With every nautical mile you should be 300ft lower. You can land that way in 0 visibilitiy (not legal though)

Do not expect fairness.

The times of chivalry and fair competition are long gone.

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I believe this question was not fully answered yet:

 

Question/questions: When I start my CDU divert to access the desired airport that I want Im confused at the part after I receive my radio bearing. For one, just to be clear when the ATC says heading "34" what number is that? is that 340? Or is that actually 34?

 

When talking about headings, "heading 34" would be 034 degrees.

 

When talking about runways, the number is always the heading, divided by ten and rounded to the nearest number. "Runway 34" would have a heading somewhere between 335 degrees and 344 degrees.

As was said before, because of magnetic variation, you should look up the exact runway heading in the approach charts, but as long as you fly a visual approach, "runway 34" should give you a very good idea of the runway orientation and how to approach it. :thumbup:

 

2nd question: When I somehow do receive the correct heading im often left puzzeled as to when Im supposed to turn in.

 

Again, as was said before, ATC is currently rudimentary at best.

 

However, the ATC will try to guide you to a point roughly 10 nm from the runway IIRC. If you approach this point at 3000 ft and align yourself with the runway right there, you should be in a very good position for final approach, both visually and in order to receive an ILS signal.

Baltic Dragon's hint with the overhead markpoint in the other thread (why did I never think of that? ;)) sounds very helpful there:

 

"Hawg 1-1, fly heading 125 for 18" - create an overhead markpoint, turn to heading 125, keep flying until you're 18 nm from the markpoint, then turn towards the airport and you should be all set up for final approach. :)

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I believe this question was not fully answered yet:

 

 

 

When talking about headings, "heading 34" would be 034 degrees.

 

When talking about runways, the number is always the heading, divided by ten and rounded to the nearest number. "Runway 34" would have a heading somewhere between 335 degrees and 344 degrees.

As was said before, because of magnetic variation, you should look up the exact runway heading in the approach charts, but as long as you fly a visual approach, "runway 34" should give you a very good idea of the runway orientation and how to approach it. :thumbup:

 

 

 

Again, as was said before, ATC is currently rudimentary at best.

 

However, the ATC will try to guide you to a point roughly 10 nm from the runway IIRC. If you approach this point at 3000 ft and align yourself with the runway right there, you should be in a very good position for final approach, both visually and in order to receive an ILS signal.

Baltic Dragon's hint with the overhead markpoint in the other thread (why did I never think of that? ;)) sounds very helpful there:

 

"Hawg 1-1, fly heading 125 for 18" - create an overhead markpoint, turn to heading 125, keep flying until you're 18 nm from the markpoint, then turn towards the airport and you should be all set up for final approach. :)

 

Now when you say that the ATC is rudimentary are you saying that it is not simulated well? This is my first flight sim so in regards to an ATC I am not sure what to expect.

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Is there a reason you would have the HUD off?

 

to be pure instrument landing only. I was literally landing looking down at instruments only: ILS for direction and glideslope, VVI for descent speed. HSI for direction of runway, etc. As basic as it gets. Well, without ILS would be even more basic, but then I don't think you could even land.

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Probably because it's harder that way. With hud, really it's just about placing VV to -3 degrees and you've done the job.

 

I watched the video, few tips:

 

You can turn off bipping sound as soon as you identify a navaid (there should be a red flag at HSI if you loose signal, so there's no point listening that annoying sound).

 

You can practice without flight director (yellow ADI steering bars) for pure raw data ILS.

 

You should never go under GS, that's an instant failure at instrument rating exam, and for a good reason: you can kill yourself.

 

Multiply your ground speed with 5.4 and you will get rate of descend you should fly to stay on 3* glide slope.

 

Try to achieve landing configuration at or above 1000ft AGL.

 

You can practice localizer approach only, which is useful when ED breaks glide slopes in some update :D. With every nautical mile you should be 300ft lower. You can land that way in 0 visibilitiy (not legal though)

 

 

I always thought opposite with regard to GS; if I were too high, I'd have to push hard DOWN to reach slope. Being below (mind you, I wasn't THAT low), I'd intercept then ease down into it. As to sounds, I REALLY didn't mind them, at the time, since I was more concerned with keeping the ILS bars aligned as best I could, while moderating speed to keep descent. As I've learned, keep nose up but use throttle to move VVI up/down.

 

It's been a long while. This thread makes me want to practice some more. :)

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Hi,

 

Example Batumi

 

Have a look at Batumi on page 17

\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Doc\Charts\DCS_GND_Charts.pdf

 

Runway 13 : 126°T true heading -> "rounded" 13

Important for us is the magnetic heading : 120° !!!

 

Runway 31 : 306°T true heading -> "rounded" 31

Magnetic heading : 300°

 

 

Batumi - ATC : 131.0

Call ATC Batumi

F1 : Inbound

 

ATC-Answer

"ATC (callsign Batumi): Enfield 1-1, fly heading 314 for 50, QFE 29.89., to pattern altitude"

314 = 314°

50 = 50 nm

QFE 29.89 - set on altimeter gauge

to pattern altidude = ca. 2000 ft AGL and a speed < 250 - in a distance of ca. 5 nm in front of the runway

 

 

Fly heading 314° (in this example)

The distance is not so important - the end point is 5 - 10 nm roundabout the airport

 

Select a map scale of 10 on the TAD

airplane symbol - inner circle = 5 nm

airplane symbol - outer circle = 10 nm

 

 

If on course, the ATC comes per automatic ( in a distance of 5 - 10 nm roundabout the airport )

 

"ATC (callsign Batumi) : Enfield 1-1, cleared for visual, contact tower"

 

F1. Request landing

 

The correct heading for runway 13 is 120°

 

 

You can exercise it without using DIVERT and Batumi as steerpoint

Try it at day / at night

 

I have a question about the 29.98 qfe, I understand that it is the altitude of the airport that you are heading, is it customary to change it to that reading as soon as I get that or no since it seems to conflict with the current reading that I am flying with when I receive the radio message?

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I believe this question was not fully answered yet:

 

 

 

When talking about headings, "heading 34" would be 034 degrees.

 

When talking about runways, the number is always the heading, divided by ten and rounded to the nearest number. "Runway 34" would have a heading somewhere between 335 degrees and 344 degrees.

As was said before, because of magnetic variation, you should look up the exact runway heading in the approach charts, but as long as you fly a visual approach, "runway 34" should give you a very good idea of the runway orientation and how to approach it. :thumbup:

 

 

 

Again, as was said before, ATC is currently rudimentary at best.

 

However, the ATC will try to guide you to a point roughly 10 nm from the runway IIRC. If you approach this point at 3000 ft and align yourself with the runway right there, you should be in a very good position for final approach, both visually and in order to receive an ILS signal.

Baltic Dragon's hint with the overhead markpoint in the other thread (why did I never think of that? ;)) sounds very helpful there:

 

"Hawg 1-1, fly heading 125 for 18" - create an overhead markpoint, turn to heading 125, keep flying until you're 18 nm from the markpoint, then turn towards the airport and you should be all set up for final approach. :)

You mentioned runway approach charts, is there a special page in the CDU or one of the mfds that holds this information or is this something that I find in the manual?

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The problem is with area bellow glide slope. You don't know what's down there, while above GS, there's only air. Yes, there is buffer zone, but it's not worth risking a life to test it. For example try ILS at Sochi, there are big buildings just bellow GS. Full GS CDI deviation is serious error. Of course, this is just a simulator, so we can try things we cannot do irl. :)

Do not expect fairness.

The times of chivalry and fair competition are long gone.

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You mentioned runway approach charts, is there a special page in the CDU or one of the mfds that holds this information or is this something that I find in the manual?

 

Only the DIVERT on the NAV page. It shows a list of airports with the one on top being the closest, and you can see the runway info and frequencies there. Not the runway heading though, that's why I always fly with smartphone for pdf charts and checklists.

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Now when you say that the ATC is rudimentary are you saying that it is not simulated well?

 

Correct. P*Funk also said so in a more colorful yet accurate way on page 1 of this thread. :)

 

I'm by no means an expert on ATC procedures, but in my first high fidelity sim, Falcon 4.0, ATC was much more detailed.

 

ED have said that they're working on reworking the DCS ATC, but I don't know the schedule for any updates. Hopefully we'll see some improvements with DCS 1.5 later this month, but it might as well take a lot more time.

 

I have a question about the 29.98 qfe, I understand that it is the altitude of the airport that you are heading, is it customary to change it to that reading as soon as I get that or no since it seems to conflict with the current reading that I am flying with when I receive the radio message?

 

As far as I know, QFE is hardly ever used in the real world. In most cases, pilots are given QNH.

 

QFE: Your altimeter reads zero on the runway.

QNH: Your altimeter shows the altitude above mean sea level (MSL) on the runway.

 

Anyway, since DCS ATC only issues QFE right now, I'd dial it in as soon as I get that information (I usually contact the tower about 30 nm out). That way you can be sure that your altimeter will read (close to) zero feet when you touch down.

 

You mentioned runway approach charts, is there a special page in the CDU or one of the mfds that holds this information or is this something that I find in the manual?

 

Mine came with DCS and are located in:

 

C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Doc\Charts

 

Just to give you an idea how important (or not) these are: I've been flying A-10C since Beta release, and I first looked at these charts about two months ago. Most of the time, I'm fine with visual approaches. :D

 

I consider them a "good to know" thing, but IMO they're not essential while you're just getting started.

 

If you want to go full real right away, these charts should come in handy, but if you just want to get a feeling for the aircraft, do some training missions, gradually progress to more difficult tasks and then move on to combat, I find that you won't really need these charts, unless someone has you land in very low visibility, which isn't the case in most missions in my experience. ;)

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