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Pre-Purchase M-2000C for DCS World by RAZBAM


Wags

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+1

 

That's a good point, I would like some clarity on this discrepancy as well.

 

The suffix "for DCS World" is only used in Su-25, A-10A, Su-27, F-15C, Hawk and now M-2000C. It is a bit weird, as the rest of the modules have names as "DCS: XXXXX". I am very insterested in this plane but I hava some doubts about systems fidelity.

 

 

Quote FROM THE PRESS RELEASE:

Key Features that the M-2000C for DCS World by RAZBAM will include:

-Advanced flight model providing realistic performance and flight characteristics

-Highly detailed and accurate 6 DOF cockpit with mouse-interactive controls

-Realistic modelling of aircraft systems including electrical, fuel, hydraulics, lighting, engine and navigation

-High resolution 3D model and cockpit textures, including specular and bump mapping

-Inflight programmable INS

-Synthetic runway display on HUD

-Realistic HUD and weapons systems including:

 

That should answer any questions about fidelity.

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Advanced Flight Model (AFM) and AFM+. An AFM uses multiple points of force application and calculation on the relevant flight surfaces. This simulates edge of envelope conditions well and avoids scripted behaviors as used in an SFM. This system also partially implements the aircraft's flight augmentation systems. DCS aircraft that use AFM includes the Su-25T. A further evolution of the AFM is what we term the AFM+ and this uses the same calculations as AFM but adds limited modeling of the hydraulic and fuel systems. Examples of AFM+ in DCS include the Su-25 and A-10A.

 

DCS Product Terms

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The developer stated that it will be an EFM, not an AFM. Many people are misunderstanding this.
EFM however, is not telling you anything about the level of fidelity of the FM. It is merely telling you it is an External flight model not being made or certified by ED (yet). So when a third party -obviously- states their module has an EFM, they should also indicate what level of ED standard they try to achieve, either SFM, AFM, or PFM.
The developer has stated in its press release it will be AFM. See SkateZilla's citation.
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I am happy with what I get. I have no skill at making these things.

I admire those who can.

I'm not impressed with those who cannot and whinge.

AFM/EFM, I don't care a hoot, to be able to have this technology at our fingertips is amazing and great FUN.

Just think of the fuel bill to get this thing to the end of the runway in real life...a once in a lifetime experience LOL.

I had a pilot tell me one time that my comms budget for the station would'nt allow him start the Tornado and do the pre-flight. So lets be happy that all this work is for our benefit, we should enjoy and be happy. Well done Razbam

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The developer has stated in its press release it will be AFM. See SkateZilla's citation.

 

No. Press release reads "Advanced flight model".

Not "AFM" nor "Advanced Flight Model".

 

Just read it as a generic term, as in: "the flight model will be advanced (aka complex, realistic, detailled... pick one).

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I think the confusion is more about what it will have upon release rather than what it will have eventually which a has been confirmed as an EFM.

 

Upon release it will be incomplete.

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I am happy with what I get. I have no skill at making these things.

I admire those who can.

I'm not impressed with those who cannot and whinge.

AFM/EFM, I don't care a hoot, to be able to have this technology at our fingertips is amazing and great FUN.

Just think of the fuel bill to get this thing to the end of the runway in real life...a once in a lifetime experience LOL.

I had a pilot tell me one time that my comms budget for the station would'nt allow him start the Tornado and do the pre-flight. So lets be happy that all this work is for our benefit, we should enjoy and be happy. Well done Razbam

 

Nobodies whining. Were being cautious. RAZBAM has a good reputation in FSX, but that means little in DCS. When you're spending $50-60 on a module (and people here happily will) it does matter if it has AFM or PFM or whatever kind of FM and there is confusion about what flight model it has and when it will get PFM. That's the big one.

 

If everything goes well and after a reasonable amount of time after release they make the PFM, people won't ask questions the next time RAZBAM makes a module. They will preorder.

 

I personally am not happy with what I get. If I was I wouldn't be here, I would be playing FSX. I want DCS level aircraft and I'll pay for it. Simple.

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That makes sense, thanks Matt. For those who may have missed this bit of info from a different thread....

 

 

Hey guys, flight modeler here! I've seen a myriad of questions across the various threads on the flight model fidelity. You guys probably haven't heard from me in a very long time but trust me I've been busy at work on the flight model.

 

You also might remember me from the F-16 AFM thread Buzzles mentioned.

 

I tend to get long-winded so I'll try my best to keep it short here.

 

This is the official basis of flight model fidelity from Wags: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=122801

 

Based on that, quality of the EFM is targeted to be in the PFM ballpark as I feel we will have nearly all of those checked, although I think the designation of that term is not up to me. I admit, data is not as richly available as the F-16, F-18, F-15, etc... there is a lot that can be resolved via aircraft and control geometry using various aerodynamic and airfoil tools. We also have data on the control theory for the M2000C. In extreme envelope regions, similar aircraft and airfoil CFD and wind tunnel data is being used to fill the gaps with corrections made to match known performance and, so far, no scripted maneuvering.

 

Suffice it to say I think you will be with happy how fun she is to fly and will be as exactingly close as possible.

 

Lastly, playing with the control laws dynamically turning on/off the FCS is an eye opener on how dangerous she is to fly without control augmentation!

 

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[sIGPIC]sigpic67951_1.gif[/sIGPIC]

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We do not call a 3rd party title "DCS: (aircraft name)" until the product has a high quality EFM. When the M-2000C changes over from an SFM to a high quality EFM, the title will change then.

 

Then why do I see this in the E-shop?

 

razbam_zpssccajlyr.jpg

 

avio_zpshw0nq8rh.jpg

 

Doesn't seem consistent to me.

 

In both cases the image and title are conflicting.

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We do not call a 3rd party title "DCS: (aircraft name)" until the product has a high quality EFM. When the M-2000C changes over from an SFM to a high quality EFM, the title will change then.

 

Why that statement match with the Hawk and Mirage but not with the C-101 ?

 

I was wasted by Cichlidfan :lol:

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Because we changed the policy after the release of the C-101.

 

I hope also that you check the fidelity of the avionics and such before giving the DCS : name..

 

I see it like a quality seal that should guarantee at least a certain level of realism.

 

PS : I own a 980 ti too, but a lower cpu, if you need a beta tester for 1.5 and 2.0.. :music_whistling::lol:


Edited by S-GERAT
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I hope also that you check the fidelity of the avionics and such before giving the DCS : name..

 

I see it like a quality seal that should guarantee at least a certain level of realism.

 

PS : I own a 980 ti too, but a lower cpu, if you need a beta tester for 1.5 and 2.0.. :music_whistling::lol:

 

As soon as 1.5/2.0 are released in open beta, you will be a beta tester! ;)

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These are the comparable aircraft to the M-2000C from what I understand.

 

*DCS: MiG-21bis = EFM/ASM

Hawk T.1A for DCS World = EFM/ASM

*DCS: C-101 Aviojet = EFM/ASM

 

Based on this the M-2000C with be one of these with EFM/ASM dynamics and modeling. This means it would receive a "XXXX for DCS World" designation, as it currently has. When these aircraft's flight dynamics are of a high enough quality, they will switch from EFM/ASM to PFM/ASM and be in the same group as these third party aircraft:

 

DCS: UH-1H Huey = PFM/ASM

DCS: F-86F Sabre = PFM/ASM

DCS: Mi-8MTV2 Magnificent Eight = PFM/ASM

DCS: MiG-15bis = PFM/ASM

 

*In reality the MiG-21bis and C-101 Aviojet should be given a "XXXX for DCS World" designation, but they were released prior to a naming convention policy change.

 

This is based on the document Wags attached here and what Wags said here and here

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We do not call a 3rd party title "DCS: (aircraft name)" until the product has a high quality EFM. When the M-2000C changes over from an SFM to a high quality EFM, the title will change then.

 

Is this indicative of the mentioned policy change? The fact that the change will be to "high quality" EFM, not PFM like the other third party aircraft? Am I correct to believe that the UH-1H, Mi-8MTV2, MiG-15bis, and F-86F would be designated as "high quality" EFM/ASM modules if they were released today, instead of PFM/ASM? This would make my previous post all wrong as I was making a distinction between EFM/ASM and PFM/ASM.

 

Will this be reflected in the attached document here?

 

This makes EFM ambiguous as the quality of EFM is not declared anywhere. As your post suggests, it can range from the Lockon Su-33 SFM to the UH-1H PFM (assuming this module would be an EFM in the document, if released today).

 

All-in-all, System Modeling weighs in more than Flight Dynamics for my personal preferences when purchasing modules.

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Looking very much forward to reviews/previews of the M-2000 to make the purchasing decision. I have not bought the Hawk or C-101 since there will be L-39 and I don't have sufficient confidence in their systems and FM implementation. Mirage, however, is definitely something I am looking into, especially if it some with at least LN MiG-21 level.

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