SkateZilla Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 +1 That's a good point, I would like some clarity on this discrepancy as well. The suffix "for DCS World" is only used in Su-25, A-10A, Su-27, F-15C, Hawk and now M-2000C. It is a bit weird, as the rest of the modules have names as "DCS: XXXXX". I am very insterested in this plane but I hava some doubts about systems fidelity. Quote FROM THE PRESS RELEASE: Key Features that the M-2000C for DCS World by RAZBAM will include: -Advanced flight model providing realistic performance and flight characteristics -Highly detailed and accurate 6 DOF cockpit with mouse-interactive controls -Realistic modelling of aircraft systems including electrical, fuel, hydraulics, lighting, engine and navigation -High resolution 3D model and cockpit textures, including specular and bump mapping -Inflight programmable INS -Synthetic runway display on HUD -Realistic HUD and weapons systems including: That should answer any questions about fidelity. Windows 10 Pro, Ryzen 2700X @ 4.6Ghz, 32GB DDR4-3200 GSkill (F4-3200C16D-16GTZR x2), ASRock X470 Taichi Ultimate, XFX RX6800XT Merc 310 (RX-68XTALFD9) 3x ASUS VS248HP + Oculus HMD, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS + MFDs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cichlidfan Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Advanced Flight Model (AFM) and AFM+. An AFM uses multiple points of force application and calculation on the relevant flight surfaces. This simulates edge of envelope conditions well and avoids scripted behaviors as used in an SFM. This system also partially implements the aircraft's flight augmentation systems. DCS aircraft that use AFM includes the Su-25T. A further evolution of the AFM is what we term the AFM+ and this uses the same calculations as AFM but adds limited modeling of the hydraulic and fuel systems. Examples of AFM+ in DCS include the Su-25 and A-10A. DCS Product Terms ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1 :thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentLaw Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 The developer stated that it will be an EFM, not an AFM. Many people are misunderstanding this. Yes, it will have a EFM. When? Not trying to sound glib, but when we feel that it is ready. Right now it is not. It is not even an alpha. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Python Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 I think the confusion is more about what it will have upon release rather than what it will have eventually which a has been confirmed as an EFM. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrohde Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Purchased. PC: AMD Ryzen 9 5950X | MSI Suprim GeForce 3090 TI | ASUS Prime X570-P | 128GB DDR4 3600 RAM | 2TB Samsung 870 EVO SSD | Win10 Pro 64bit Gear: HP Reverb G2 | JetPad FSE | VKB Gunfighter Pro Mk.III w/ MCG Ultimate VKBcontrollers.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 The developer stated that it will be an EFM, not an AFM. Many people are misunderstanding this.EFM however, is not telling you anything about the level of fidelity of the FM. It is merely telling you it is an External flight model not being made or certified by ED (yet). So when a third party -obviously- states their module has an EFM, they should also indicate what level of ED standard they try to achieve, either SFM, AFM, or PFM.The developer has stated in its press release it will be AFM. See SkateZilla's citation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingscotsman Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 I am happy with what I get. I have no skill at making these things. I admire those who can. I'm not impressed with those who cannot and whinge. AFM/EFM, I don't care a hoot, to be able to have this technology at our fingertips is amazing and great FUN. Just think of the fuel bill to get this thing to the end of the runway in real life...a once in a lifetime experience LOL. I had a pilot tell me one time that my comms budget for the station would'nt allow him start the Tornado and do the pre-flight. So lets be happy that all this work is for our benefit, we should enjoy and be happy. Well done Razbam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrayen Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 The developer has stated in its press release it will be AFM. See SkateZilla's citation. No. Press release reads "Advanced flight model". Not "AFM" nor "Advanced Flight Model". Just read it as a generic term, as in: "the flight model will be advanced (aka complex, realistic, detailled... pick one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cichlidfan Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 I think the confusion is more about what it will have upon release rather than what it will have eventually which a has been confirmed as an EFM. Upon release it will be incomplete. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1 :thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dappman Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 I am happy with what I get. I have no skill at making these things. I admire those who can. I'm not impressed with those who cannot and whinge. AFM/EFM, I don't care a hoot, to be able to have this technology at our fingertips is amazing and great FUN. Just think of the fuel bill to get this thing to the end of the runway in real life...a once in a lifetime experience LOL. I had a pilot tell me one time that my comms budget for the station would'nt allow him start the Tornado and do the pre-flight. So lets be happy that all this work is for our benefit, we should enjoy and be happy. Well done Razbam Nobodies whining. Were being cautious. RAZBAM has a good reputation in FSX, but that means little in DCS. When you're spending $50-60 on a module (and people here happily will) it does matter if it has AFM or PFM or whatever kind of FM and there is confusion about what flight model it has and when it will get PFM. That's the big one. If everything goes well and after a reasonable amount of time after release they make the PFM, people won't ask questions the next time RAZBAM makes a module. They will preorder. I personally am not happy with what I get. If I was I wouldn't be here, I would be playing FSX. I want DCS level aircraft and I'll pay for it. Simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Python Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Upon release it will be incomplete. Hence the confusion, does incomplete mean SFM, or something better, just not finished? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Wags Posted September 20, 2015 Author ED Team Share Posted September 20, 2015 We do not call a 3rd party title "DCS: (aircraft name)" until the product has a high quality EFM. When the M-2000C changes over from an SFM to a high quality EFM, the title will change then. Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/wagmatt Twitch: wagmatt System: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3729544#post3729544 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Python Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 That makes sense, thanks Matt. For those who may have missed this bit of info from a different thread.... Hey guys, flight modeler here! I've seen a myriad of questions across the various threads on the flight model fidelity. You guys probably haven't heard from me in a very long time but trust me I've been busy at work on the flight model. You also might remember me from the F-16 AFM thread Buzzles mentioned. I tend to get long-winded so I'll try my best to keep it short here. This is the official basis of flight model fidelity from Wags: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=122801 Based on that, quality of the EFM is targeted to be in the PFM ballpark as I feel we will have nearly all of those checked, although I think the designation of that term is not up to me. I admit, data is not as richly available as the F-16, F-18, F-15, etc... there is a lot that can be resolved via aircraft and control geometry using various aerodynamic and airfoil tools. We also have data on the control theory for the M2000C. In extreme envelope regions, similar aircraft and airfoil CFD and wind tunnel data is being used to fill the gaps with corrections made to match known performance and, so far, no scripted maneuvering. Suffice it to say I think you will be with happy how fun she is to fly and will be as exactingly close as possible. Lastly, playing with the control laws dynamically turning on/off the FCS is an eye opener on how dangerous she is to fly without control augmentation! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cichlidfan Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 We do not call a 3rd party title "DCS: (aircraft name)" until the product has a high quality EFM. When the M-2000C changes over from an SFM to a high quality EFM, the title will change then. Then why do I see this in the E-shop? Doesn't seem consistent to me. In both cases the image and title are conflicting. ASUS ROG Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700K, Noctua NH-D14 Cooler, Crucial 32GB DDR4 2133, Samsung 950 Pro NVMe 256GB, Samsung EVO 250GB & 500GB SSD, 2TB Caviar Black, Zotac GTX 1080 AMP! Extreme 8GB, Corsair HX1000i, Phillips BDM4065UC 40" 4k monitor, VX2258 TouchScreen, TIR 5 w/ProClip, TM Warthog, VKB Gladiator Pro, Saitek X56, et. al., MFG Crosswind Pedals #1199, VolairSim Pit, Rift CV1 :thumbup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-GERAT Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 We do not call a 3rd party title "DCS: (aircraft name)" until the product has a high quality EFM. When the M-2000C changes over from an SFM to a high quality EFM, the title will change then. Why that statement match with the Hawk and Mirage but not with the C-101 ? I was wasted by Cichlidfan :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Wags Posted September 20, 2015 Author ED Team Share Posted September 20, 2015 Because we changed the policy after the release of the C-101. Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/wagmatt Twitch: wagmatt System: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3729544#post3729544 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-GERAT Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) Because we changed the policy after the release of the C-101. I hope also that you check the fidelity of the avionics and such before giving the DCS : name.. I see it like a quality seal that should guarantee at least a certain level of realism. PS : I own a 980 ti too, but a lower cpu, if you need a beta tester for 1.5 and 2.0.. :music_whistling::lol: Edited September 20, 2015 by S-GERAT 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyrixx Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 I hope also that you check the fidelity of the avionics and such before giving the DCS : name.. I see it like a quality seal that should guarantee at least a certain level of realism. PS : I own a 980 ti too, but a lower cpu, if you need a beta tester for 1.5 and 2.0.. :music_whistling::lol: As soon as 1.5/2.0 are released in open beta, you will be a beta tester! ;) Robert Sogomonian | Psyrixx website| e-mail | blog | youtube | twitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-GERAT Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Too anxious to become a beta tester, can't wait to the release ( and hoping that this time isn't subject to change ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chann3l Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Pre ordered, last one for a while (ordered a lot of modules recently) should have enough to keep me busy for some time. Stoked for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razi Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) I learnt some things, see my next post down. Edited September 21, 2015 by Razi Figured stuff out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demon_ Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Thank you RAZBAM for this lovely module. As i know about the high competence of your team, it will be awesome. I'm sure Christmas is in December. Attache ta tuque avec d'la broche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razi Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 These are the comparable aircraft to the M-2000C from what I understand. *DCS: MiG-21bis = EFM/ASM Hawk T.1A for DCS World = EFM/ASM *DCS: C-101 Aviojet = EFM/ASM Based on this the M-2000C with be one of these with EFM/ASM dynamics and modeling. This means it would receive a "XXXX for DCS World" designation, as it currently has. When these aircraft's flight dynamics are of a high enough quality, they will switch from EFM/ASM to PFM/ASM and be in the same group as these third party aircraft: DCS: UH-1H Huey = PFM/ASM DCS: F-86F Sabre = PFM/ASM DCS: Mi-8MTV2 Magnificent Eight = PFM/ASM DCS: MiG-15bis = PFM/ASM *In reality the MiG-21bis and C-101 Aviojet should be given a "XXXX for DCS World" designation, but they were released prior to a naming convention policy change. This is based on the document Wags attached here and what Wags said here and here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razi Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 We do not call a 3rd party title "DCS: (aircraft name)" until the product has a high quality EFM. When the M-2000C changes over from an SFM to a high quality EFM, the title will change then. Is this indicative of the mentioned policy change? The fact that the change will be to "high quality" EFM, not PFM like the other third party aircraft? Am I correct to believe that the UH-1H, Mi-8MTV2, MiG-15bis, and F-86F would be designated as "high quality" EFM/ASM modules if they were released today, instead of PFM/ASM? This would make my previous post all wrong as I was making a distinction between EFM/ASM and PFM/ASM. Will this be reflected in the attached document here? This makes EFM ambiguous as the quality of EFM is not declared anywhere. As your post suggests, it can range from the Lockon Su-33 SFM to the UH-1H PFM (assuming this module would be an EFM in the document, if released today). All-in-all, System Modeling weighs in more than Flight Dynamics for my personal preferences when purchasing modules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Looking very much forward to reviews/previews of the M-2000 to make the purchasing decision. I have not bought the Hawk or C-101 since there will be L-39 and I don't have sufficient confidence in their systems and FM implementation. Mirage, however, is definitely something I am looking into, especially if it some with at least LN MiG-21 level. AMD R7 5800X3D | Aorus B550 Pro | 32GB DDR4-3600 | RTX 4080 | VKB MGC Pro Gunfighter Mk III + Thustmaster TWCS + VKB T-Rudder Mk4 | HP Reverb G2 FC3 | A-10C II | Ка-50 | P-51 | UH-1 | Ми-8 | F-86F | МиГ-21 | FW-190 | МиГ-15 | Л-39 | Bf 109 | M-2000C | F-5 | Spitfire | AJS-37 | AV-8B | F/A-18C | Як-52 | F-14 | F-16 | Ми-24 | AH-64 NTTR | Normandy | Gulf | Syria | Supercarrier | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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