Pre-Purchase M-2000C for DCS World by RAZBAM

[OnlyforDCS]

A lot of people in this thread and on the forum in general are more or less arguing semantics without understanding that they are doing so. This is partly ED's fault, for providing too much information on what should probably be internal designations for the differing flight models.

 

Guys you should not be hung up on the different flight model designations. The differences between the various advanced flight models (EFM/AFM/PFM) are subtle and would not be apparent to anyone who doesn't have extensive experience with the planes themselves or is knowledgeable enough in the field of aerodynamics and aerodynamic simulations.

 

The difference between the SFM and the other more advanced flight models is the only thing that should be worrying anyone, and in the case of the M2000C both the programmer doing the FM and Wags himself have given statements to the effect that the plane is not shipping with the SFM.

 

The plane is apparently already flying without any scripted behavior and in whatever shape the EFM is by the open beta release it will still be bounds and leaps ahead of any scripted flight modeling.

 

I was worried that the plane would ship with the proprietary SFM but this has been confirmed not to be the case.

 

For this reason alone I will be (pre)purchasing the plane. Thanks for bearing this wall of text.

Edited September 21, 2015 by OnlyforDCS

[S-GERAT]

A lot of people in this thread and on the forum in general are more or less arguing semantics without understanding that they are doing so. This is partly ED's fault, for providing too much information on what should probably be internal designations for the differing flight models.

 

Guys you should not be hung up on the different flight model designations. The differences between the various advanced flight models (EFM/AFM/PFM) are subtle and would not be apparent to anyone who doesn't have extensive experience with the planes themselves or is knowledgeable enough in the field of aerodynamics and aerodynamic simulations.

 

The difference between the SFM and the other more advanced flight models is the only thing that should be worrying anyone, and in the case of the M2000C both the programmer doing the FM and Wags himself have given statements to the effect that the plane is not shipping with the SFM.

 

The plane is apparently already flying without any scripted behavior and in whatever shape the EFM is by the open beta release it will still be bounds and leaps ahead of any scripted flight modeling.

 

I was worried that the plane would ship with the proprietary SFM but this has been confirmed not to be the case.

 

For this reason alone I will be (pre)purchasing the plane. Thanks for bearing this wall of text.

 

In the Mirage 2000 thread, Zeus stated they're working in the EFM for trying to include it in the beta release if the quality level is acceptable.

[XeNoise]

Anyways, its not about the difference betwen afm and pfm, its only about knowing, that a real pilot tried it and stated that it feels like the real one. Thats why fsx is a game while dcs is a simulator.

[112th_Rossi]

Thats why fsx is a game while dcs is a simulator.

 

Shots fired?

[OnlyforDCS]

In the Mirage 2000 thread, Zeus stated they're working in the EFM for trying to include it in the beta release if the quality level is acceptable.

 

Read CptSmiley's post on the nature of the flight model. All will be made clear :thumbup:

[S-GERAT]

Read CptSmiley's post on the nature of the flight model. All will be made clear :thumbup:

 

I know the differences between the flight models, Only was appointing what Zeus said, if the development of the flight model goes well, we can get the beta with EFM, if not with the hated SFM.

[Wolf Rider]

 

~ it does matter if it has AFM or PFM or whatever kind of FM and there is confusion about what flight model it has and when it will get PFM. That's the big one.

 

If everything goes well and after a reasonable amount of time after release they make the PFM, people won't ask questions the next time RAZBAM makes a module. They will preorder.

 

~

 

 

This is why the reference to the actual distinctions keeps being posted up every so often... just as reminder to what is what

 

 

Said elsewhere... EFM is outside of ED "Quality Control" and only uses a part of ED's "PFM" Flight Model maker thingy - so, in that, the 3rd party may get close (to ED), they may not. It just depends on what genuine data, how much they research the data they have access to and how much work they want to put into their product

 

Quite simply:

SFM = not much effort and/ or ability, for whatever reason > insert your own here <

AFM = a bit more effort and/ or ability, for whatever reason > insert your own here <

EFM = external to ED developer and comprising a lot more effort and ability, might be close to ED (PFM) effort, might not - but, could also be in the realm of SFM or AFM ( 3rd party should state this clearly - if it's not one, its the other)

PFM = ED in house development and the full blown effort and ability

 

this is just very simplistic, and not meant to reflect on any party, but an EFM should never be likened to PFM purely for reasons of the FM being developed by ED or a 3rd party to ED

 

Right or wrong, I also believe pricing controls and length of "open-beta" and "we'll bring in the promised next level", etc, should be set by ED

Edited September 21, 2015 by Wolf Rider

[OnlyforDCS]

I know the differences between the flight models, Only was appointing what Zeus said, if the development of the flight model goes well, we can get the beta with EFM, if not with the hated SFM.

 

Im not sure we understood each other clearly. This is the post Im talking about:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2477968&postcount=7

 

Now if Im reading that correctly, the plane is already flying without scripted behavior, which means it isn't SFM.

[XeNoise]

Shots fired?

 

Excuse me? :p

[S-GERAT]

Im not sure we understood each other clearly. This is the post Im talking about:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2477968&postcount=7

 

Now if Im reading that correctly, the plane is already flying without scripted behavior, which means it isn't SFM.

 

Yes, we are talking about different posts.I'm talking about this one :

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2476775&postcount=1521

 

They're working on the efm, but is not sure that it will be ready for the beta release.

[Devrim]

Hey.

 

A question: Are Mirage module's keybindings completed, or missing like other beta modules?

Thanks.

[Wolf Rider]

^ and that's a very good question...

[Devrim]

I think I will need to ask this question for all "new" modules.

Because I hate flying with missing controls, functions or keycommands.

 

Some can say "don't buy it" or "wait for finale release then" etc. They're right, I think I should do that because the magic of new module disappears in time until finale version releases... :\

[Flogger23m]

A lot of people in this thread and on the forum in general are more or less arguing semantics without understanding that they are doing so. This is partly ED's fault, for providing too much information on what should probably be internal designations for the differing flight models.

 

Guys you should not be hung up on the different flight model designations. The differences between the various advanced flight models (EFM/AFM/PFM) are subtle and would not be apparent to anyone who doesn't have extensive experience with the planes themselves or is knowledgeable enough in the field of aerodynamics and aerodynamic simulations.

 

The difference between the SFM and the other more advanced flight models is the only thing that should be worrying anyone, and in the case of the M2000C both the programmer doing the FM and Wags himself have given statements to the effect that the plane is not shipping with the SFM.

 

The plane is apparently already flying without any scripted behavior and in whatever shape the EFM is by the open beta release it will still be bounds and leaps ahead of any scripted flight modeling.

 

I was worried that the plane would ship with the proprietary SFM but this has been confirmed not to be the case.

 

For this reason alone I will be (pre)purchasing the plane. Thanks for bearing this wall of text.

 

Agreed. The difference between the AFM, AFM+ and PFM are not that big. 99% of the players will not notice the difference between them. I'd imagine you would have to be a pilot of said aircraft to be able to tell the difference. And the difference in time/cost to add the differences are likely not too big. The SFM on the other hand is a rather large difference.

[Fri13]

Is there possibility to carry the "Magic I" missile then? Would be nice to have some limitations to be able launch it only from target rear atmosphere in some missions :-)

[Witchking]

How detailed is the RADAR implementation going to be? Is it going to be modelled in exhaustive detail? or is it more the FC3 level ?

 

In general...Looking good...but there is a few things (maybe I have just been spoilt by ED's / leatherneck / BST level of attention to detail). But when the Radar screen and HUD is turned on...it seems very "game-like"...immediate turn on... Look at ED's aircraft...even the Su-25T..the HUD fades in....the tape rotates to correct position. The Ka50 ABRIS has a startup procedure...not just direct to the screen. I am assuming the Mirage has a similar startup sequence/ animation? Also graphically...can't pinpoint it..but the combiner/the HUD black/grey metal piece under the hud..looks too cartoony..blocky. Might just need a bit of weathering like the sides of the cockpit. But I am sure its part of the WIP status. Looking forward to this aircraft. Finally...a totally new modern jet fighter to fly around in. :)

[OnlyforDCS]

How detailed is the RADAR implementation going to be? Is it going to be modelled in exhaustive detail? or is it more the FC3 level ?

 

In general...Looking good...but there is a few things (maybe I have just been spoilt by ED's / leatherneck / BST level of attention to detail). But when the Radar screen and HUD is turned on...it seems very "game-like"...immediate turn on... Look at ED's aircraft...even the Su-25T..the HUD fades in....the tape rotates to correct position. The Ka50 ABRIS has a startup procedure...not just direct to the screen. I am assuming the Mirage has a similar startup sequence/ animation? Also graphically...can't pinpoint it..but the combiner/the HUD black/grey metal piece under the hud..looks too cartoony..blocky. Might just need a bit of weathering like the sides of the cockpit. But I am sure its part of the WIP status. Looking forward to this aircraft. Finally...a totally new modern jet fighter to fly around in. :)

 

pre-alpha....pre-alpha....pre-alpha :) You know how else you can tell it's in pre alpha? I mean aside from Wags telling you it's pre alpha...the big green circle on the HUD, thats kind of indicative that things are going to be needing fixing.

[S3NTRY11]

pre-alpha....pre-alpha....pre-alpha :) You know how else you can tell it's in pre alpha? I mean aside from Wags telling you it's pre alpha...the big green circle on the HUD, thats kind of indicative that things are going to be needing fixing.

I'm not sure all of his points can be written off by "pre-alpha"! :D

[OnlyforDCS]

Actually yes they can. In an 'alpha' features are incomplete and not locked in. This means that literally anything we see now can be changed, improved, reworked, or even completely removed before the module enters beta.

[Dudikoff]

This means that literally anything we see now can be changed, improved, reworked, or even completely removed before the module enters beta.

 

They key word here being *CAN*. I agree it's a little early to judge, but given the available prepurchase option and this being RAZBAM's first DCS module, until the developers give an update of what is WIP and will get updated (for beta and/or afterwards), his comments/questions still stand IMHO and your dismissal of them as being "pre-alpha" might be just wishful thinking on your part.

 

I would very much appreciate to hear the developers' point of view on what are the visible areas that will be worked on for the beta and the final release (e.g. cockpit, cockpit systems, external model, etc.) and what is considered as pretty much done work before I can make a decision on the prepurchase (plus the EFM status - I'd rather avoid getting into another module in a similar state as Hawk was/is at beta which I would not touch after purchase while waiting for updates).

Edited September 24, 2015 by Dudikoff

[S3NTRY11]

Actually yes they can. In an 'alpha' features are incomplete and not locked in. This means that literally anything we see now can be changed, improved, reworked, or even completely removed before the module enters beta.

 

All I'm saying is that just because it is in alpha, it is not a foregone conclusion that anything mentioned regarding improvements/features/bugs need not be mentioned, since they may be things not yet assessed or considered by the team. Perfect time to bring some things up!

[OnlyforDCS]

All I'm saying is that just because it is in alpha, it is not a foregone conclusion that anything mentioned regarding improvements/features/bugs need not be mentioned, since they may be things not yet assessed or considered by the team. Perfect time to bring some things up!

 

I agree 100%. But the thing is this, I'm reasonably sure that the developers don't scour the forums looking for suggestions on how to 'improve' their modules which are still pre-alpha. I'm also reasonably sure that they are aware of many if not all of the complaints raised here and are knee-deep in their efforts to fix them. Hence the constant "WIP" and "PRE-ALPHA" disclaimers everywhere. People forget that the developers doing the hard work are heavily invested in what they do, and that maybe just maybe we should give them the chance to complete what they are doing, and the benefit of the doubt that they actually know what they are doing.

[scharrk]

Not sure if it was asked before. The Mirage can carry JDAM's simillar to the GBU38, right ?

[stalhuth]

Not sure if it was asked before. The Mirage can carry JDAM's simillar to the GBU38, right ?

not this one

[Fri13]

I am ready to pre-purchase but I actually have just a one question (not stopping me....), is the Mirage 2000C really using a imperial units?

I have tried to find out the information which one it is using (some people say that most western aircrafts use imperial units) but that there would be capability to change the units on HUD settings in aircraft?