Stop Complaining guys!!!

[Sporg]

Forgot to mention I use rudder pedals, just in case :smilewink:.

 

S!

 

Hehe, me too. :)

But thanks anyway.

 

However, your settings don't seem to be the best for me right now.

For me the plane feels unstable, especially when turning hard right.

I'll stick with 0 on both for now.

 

Another thing, is it just me, or does the engine feel considerably weaker now?

 

I seem to need a much longer take off run, and in the air I seem to need a bit higher throttle a than ATA 1.2 to fly it, than I did before with ATA 1.2?

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

ISO 9000 doesnt mean every customer is right, also as ED is a professional simulation company, making simulations for not only us consumers, but professional contracts, I would say they have earned the right to develop a simulation and use to have a little more faith in their abilities than you show in almost every post you make.

I'm sure that any customer who performed a claim, are right, but probably many of them have not the correct information of the product that they was buying, and they claim due to misinformation.

 

I know that DCS world is a powerful and a very good simulation environment, but at present day DCS world (ver 1.2.16) have a lot of things that must be improved.

And obviously ED not put any love in the DCS:Bf-109K4. or that seems at the moment.

 

"Professional" not mean better quality necessarily. I work with AIRBUS and I update the FMGC database of real aircraft with floppy disks every month, not CD-ROM, or USB, etc.

And note that many flight schools use the Microsoft Flight Simulator X in professional simulators (with real instrument panel replica), and all virtual pilots knows that MS FSX is very poor in physics and aerodynamics effects, and there is not damage model.

 

Probably a true and accurate aircombat simulator, as we like, need more quality in graphic and programing than a professional training simulator.

 

See the picture, is not a joke, it is russian-made professional helicopter simulator, for training stacionary flight.

 

http://heliwhale.ru/prodaga/trenazhjor.html

 

 

Yo-Yo listens to everything you have stated,

It´s possible, ..but he not explained yet why the ZERO mark in the elevator trim indicator, is not "neutral trim" in the Bf-109K4.

 

but if you are 100% right, and he is 100% wrong, then maybe its time you start out and make your own module ;) You have to listen as well Otto... I havent seen that yet.

I never intended, and I never said to be 100% right, but, you always say that Yo-Yo is 100% right...Maybe we are right 50/50, :smilewink:

 

I explained several times that the Bf-109 pitches-up at full throttle and pitches-down when pilot cut the throttle, due to engine torque effect, that is the reason because the Bf-109 real life pilots, take the manifold pressure as reference for trimming the aircraft in cruise. And this is reason because the VVS test that ED are taken as reference for modeling is wrong.

The VVS test was performed in climb & combat power 1.3 ATA, not at crusie power, 1 ATA, .Probably the Yo-Yo error is overlook the piches-up TORQUE. at 1.3 ATA. which is stronger than 1 ATA at normal cruise in the BF-109G2.

 

I'm really worried with this issue, because it´s contrary to all literature about bf-109.. :(

[Ala13_ManOWar]

However, your settings don't seem to be the best for me right now.

For me the plane feels unstable, especially when turning hard right.

I'll stick with 0 on both for now.

 

Another thing, is it just me, or does the engine feel considerably weaker now?

 

I seem to need a much longer take off run, and in the air I seem to need a bit higher throttle a than ATA 1.2 to fly it, than I did before with ATA 1.2?

Yeah, sure. I tried +10 rudder -4 ailerons and that's better. Anyway any trim tab setting you use will work only for a certain speed. My setting works fine for ~400Km/H, may be a bit more. Lower or higher speeds results in the aircraft untrimmed as always :smilewink:. I'll give a try for a time and decide if I like and it worth the while or not.

 

Yes the module has been underpowered. It's being discussed she was overpowered and had too high climb speed so it's fixed to historical values. Anyway I also feel her too weak in some points. May we have to get used. Take off run is fine for me, still 1.3 ATA gets you airborne sooner than expected :smilewink:.

 

S!

[IIIJG52_Otto_]

Definitely!!! So not your case my friend as you show all of us here every time your mouth opens :smilewink:.

 

Even more, you didn't even read your own provided link as it doesn't name trim at all in weight and balance subject... (of course it doesn't)

S!

you didn't even read.. .. :music_whistling:

 

see underlined please..

 

P.D.

Complete document from FAA

 

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aircraft/media/FAA-H-8083-1A.pdf

[Crumpp]

Bf-109 real life pilots, take the manifold pressure as reference for trimming the aircraft in cruise.

 

Real life pilots know trim is a speed to the aircraft and control force to the pilot.

[I.ZG15_FALKE]

ruderausschlag = Rudder

 

No!

In German language Ruder is the generic term for a control surface. The specific control surface would be Höhenruder (elevator) Querruder (aileron) and Seitenruder (rudder).

 

Even more upper graph shows the deflection type of the control surface as ziehen and drücken.

This only applies for elevator!

 

Sorry but for a German native speaker this documents shows nothing about Seitenruder deflection. It's just speculation to put it into a different context other than elevator.

[[DBS]TH0R]

It´s possible, ..but he not explained yet why the ZERO mark in the elevator trim indicator, is not "neutral trim" in the Bf-109K4.

 

Funny how DCS isn't the only sim that doesn't have 0 for level flight. ;)

[Solty]

ruderausschlag = Rudder

 

Realy? Are you going to argue with not only a German, but German proffesional translator?

 

Crump, its not wrong not to know. It is bad to keep fighting when you know that you are wrong. It is getting sad realy.

 

 

@FALKE Thx man. :)

 

I think that first one is about 109G and the second one is a comparisson of Fw190 and Bf109, is that possible?

Edited October 2, 2015 by Solty

[Crumpp]

Realy? Are you going to argue with not only a German, but German proffesional translator?

 

Crump, its not wrong not to know. It is bad to keep fighting when you know that you are wrong. It is getting sad realy.

 

First of all, if I am wrong or make a mistake I own it.

 

It is more than one source, Native German speakers, that disagree so please do not cloud the issue.

 

The US Government had professional translators when they processed the report. They too seem to have made the same "mistake".

 

So which is it???

 

Elevator or Rudder??? I have an equal number of native speakers disagreeing. Unfortunately, not something that is uncommon it German especially with technical language.

 

[rrohde]

Hoehenruder = Elevator. Hoehenruderwinkel = Elevator position.

[I.ZG15_FALKE]

@ crumpp

OK, lets put aside that the graph you are quoting is showing ordinate (y-axis) as ziehen and drücken, which in no way would refer to Seitenruder (rudder),

what would be your conclusion how Seitenruder would affect change in stickforce of Höhenruder (elevator) over [static -- edit: I got that wrong] pressure?

 

Please explain, I think I miss something here?!:huh:

I really want to understand the issue here!

 

My assumtion would be that in the documentation in english language rudder also is a collective term for aileron, elevator and rudder.

Edited October 2, 2015 by I./ZG15_FALKE

[Crumpp]

No!

In German language Ruder is the generic term for a control surface. The specific control surface would be Höhenruder (elevator) Querruder (aileron) and Seitenruder (rudder).

 

Even more upper graph shows the deflection type of the control surface as ziehen and drücken.

This only applies for elevator!

 

Sorry but for a German native speaker this documents shows nothing about Seitenruder deflection. It's just speculation to put it into a different context other than elevator.

 

Falke,

 

I know seitenruder is normally used.

 

Like I said, this has been looked by native speakers on this end. Including one I know, work with, and see almost daily who is also well educated on the practical and theoretical aspects of aircraft. We've literally flown around the world together co-captaining....multiple times, going both east and west.

 

Granted, only he looked at the Graphs and not the text. He was also told the report was an investigation or elevator and rudder angles/control forces so I made have set him up for failure. If it was not for that fact, I would not be pushing back.

 

I actually took it to him because I was searching for the rudder measurements in the report mentioned by the US Government translators and could not find either the text or the graph.

[I.ZG15_FALKE]

Just another hint:

 

The headline for the first graph is

Ruderausschlag bei festem Staudruck ...

here one could argue what the meaning of Ruder would be, rudder or elevator or aileron.

 

The headline for the second graph on the same page is

Höhensteuer-Handkraft bei festem Staudruck ...

Höhensteuer is german for control actuator (hinged to elevator).

So the english term for Höhensteuer-Handkraft would be stick-force (for elevator, not aileron)

:joystick:

 

The overall headline is

Me 109 Einfluß der Mach´schen Zahl auf Staudruckhandkräfte und Höhenruderwinkel im Vergleich zur FW190

 

So it´s about stick-force and angle of deflection of elevator over speed (Mach), comparing Me109 and FW190

Edited October 2, 2015 by I./ZG15_FALKE

[Crumpp]

what would be your conclusion how Seitenruder would affect change in stickforce of Höhenruder (elevator) over static pressure?

 

It is not static pressure, it is dynamic pressure. It would be isolating mach effects and is probably linked to the earlier dive investigations of both German fighters.

 

If it is rudder, a constant dynamic pressure would prove mach effects on directional stability. If it is elevator, it would prove mach effects on the longitudinal axis.

 

Directional axis has absolutely nothing to do with the longitudinal axis. The only time they are coupled is an inertial roll scenario. That is a jet age phenomenon resulting from long heavy fuselages and very low aspect ratio wings.

 

That is why the only conclusion IF the top graph was rudder angle then the bottom graph was better translated as "stick forces" instead of "elevator forces".

 

Roll inertia was not even discovered until well into the post war. The FW-190 has a short fuselage and high aspect ratio wings....not a good start for an inertial roll scenario.

 

Mach effects were still a big mystery during the war. The debate over whether the control surfaces in mach tuck were frozen or moving at the pilots input was not settled until the last years of the war. You can read the FW-190 dive report. The engineers were baffled by behaviors of the aircraft at high speed especially the pronounced yaw in mach tuck.

[I.ZG15_FALKE]

OK I read you now!

 

But still I see no indication that the graphs refer to rudder. Maybe if one had the text that accompanied the graph ...

[Crumpp]

Just another hint:

 

The headline for the frist graph is

Ruderausschlag bei festem Staudruck ...

here one colud argue what the meaning of Ruder would be, rudder or elevator or aileron.

 

The headline for the second graph on the same page is

Höhensteuer-Handkraft bei festem Staudruck ...

Höhensteuer is german for control actuator (hinged to elevator).

So the english term for Höhensteuer-Handkraft would be stick-force (for elevator, not aileron)

:joystick:

 

The overall headline is

Me 109 Einfluß der Mach´schen Zahl auf Staudruckhandkräfte und Höhenruderwinkel im Vergleich zur FW190

 

So it´s about stick-force and angle of deflection of elevator over speed (Mach), comparing Me109 and FW190

 

I am going to agree with you. In reading the text, there is detailed information on the set up of the elevator both in instrumentation used in measurement, trim settings, and CG location. That is the information you need to perform an investigation of the longitudinal axis stability and control.

 

There is no detailed information on the rudder set up. It could be like the NACA, there were generic instructions for directional control investigations because there just is not much to setting up a rudder for a directional control investigation but I that would be another assumption.

[Crumpp]

Maybe if one had the text that accompanied the graph ...

 

I got it...I will post it.

[Crumpp]

Crumpp says:

I actually took it to him because I was searching for the rudder measurements in the report mentioned by the US Government translators and could not find IN either the text or the graph.

 

Left out an important word.

 

Here is the text, pages 7 and 8 are already posted in the thread.

[NineLine]

 

It´s possible, ..but he not explained yet why the ZERO mark in the elevator trim indicator, is not "neutral trim" in the Bf-109K4.

(

 

 

Actually I am pretty sure you have been told, but I know that when you dont like the answers you tend to be forgetful.

 

I am pretty sure zero on anything means there has been no adjustment, which probably means when the trim is set to zero, it means there is zero trim... so it is neutral trim.

 

I am not sure why this is such a tough concept, and WHY or god WHY we have to go over it every few posts from you. 0 is 0...

 

If I set my radio to 0, no sound comes out

 

If I set my bank account to 0, no money comes out

 

if I set my trim in my 109 to zero, its not trimmed and will fly like the creators intended it, like a bad ass mother bat out of hell with a slight nose up attitude......

 

I havent flown anything else in DCS where you set the trim to zero and it automatically means level flight at cruise...

 

Let me know if you need any other examples of what Zero means...

Edited October 2, 2015 by NineLine

[I.ZG15_FALKE]

like a bad ass mother bat out of hell with a slight nose up attitude......

 

:megalol::lol::lol:

 

Made my day!

[Ala13_ManOWar]

:megalol: :megalol: :megalol: :megalol: :megalol:

 

Sublime. Thanks Sithspawn :smilewink:.

 

S!

[Yo-Yo]

First of all, if I am wrong or make a mistake I own it.

 

It is more than one source, Native German speakers, that disagree so please do not cloud the issue.

 

The US Government had professional translators when they processed the report. They too seem to have made the same "mistake".

 

So which is it???

 

Elevator or Rudder??? I have an equal number of native speakers disagreeing. Unfortunately, not something that is uncommon it German especially with technical language.

 

 

Dear Crumpp, :) please - what link is between STICK FORCES and RUDDER :)? The shape of the curves, the text, and many details tells us about the elevator and longitudinal stability/ I know this report and as far as I remember have the translation of it.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

 

I havent flown anything else in DCS where you set the trim to zero and it automatically means level flight at cruise...

 

 

True, and very evident if you try the P51d or TF51d, even with only the fuselage tank being used and the wing tanks not being drained, to avoid weight asymmetry, there have to be constant aileron, rudder and pitch trim adjustments if power for any power changes, and setting the pitch trim at it's neutral position will certainly NOT bring hands free flight....

 

By the same token it applies to the Fw190....

[NineLine]

True, and very evident if you try the P51d or TF51d, even with only the fuselage tank being used and the wing tanks not being drained, to avoid weight asymmetry, there have to be constant aileron, rudder and pitch trim adjustments if power for any power changes, and setting the pitch trim at it's neutral position will certainly NOT bring hands free flight....

 

By the same token it applies to the Fw190....

 

 

The 190 is a Cadillac of German aircraft... or I guess BMW... anyways, you are right, and it shows in the aircraft, it feels like a much easier aircraft to fly... and not going to turn and bite you when you are not paying attention like the 109... but I am sure that is just difference in the designers. If I was going into a fight, I would take the 109 hands down over the 190.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

The 190 is a Cadillac of German aircraft... or I guess BMW... anyways, you are right, and it shows in the aircraft, it feels like a much easier aircraft to fly... and not going to turn and bite you when you are not paying attention like the 109... but I am sure that is just difference in the designers. If I was going into a fight, I would take the 109 hands down over the 190.

 

While I really look forward to be able to install v1.5 ( not able yet due to bandwidth shortage ) and try the K4 with the recent updates, and while it is also an aircraft I prefer visually, truth is the 190 has turned into my preferred module, in DCS and in other ww2 flightsim.

 

Yes it's trick to bring to combat if the correct tactics aren't applied, but there's really something special about it, and something that has, IMO, been perfectly captured in DCS.