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Improved Spotting


gavagai

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Forcing the solution On or Off in servers is a natural progression... the also natural response to that will be "if ya don't like (on or off) don't fly on that server. It'll end up being realistic servers and air quake with visibility icons set to large servers

The trouble with server settings is that there aren't enough players, particularly DCS WWII to even fill a single server let alone two.

I was hoping this MV effect would be so subtle that it would be akin to a graphic setting and nobody would mind it being a player setting rather than a server one. But if it's as obtrusive as icons I can see why people would want it server side.

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Forcing the setting on/off will be the ultimate form of flightsim hubris, because that basically says you know what kind of hardware/display someone else has, how far he sits from his monitor, and his current age/eyesight.

Well that's really how it is now. When you set up a server for "Full Real" without icons you're catering to the players who have large screens or head tracking etc.

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Well that's really how it is now. When you set up a server for "Full Real" without icons you're catering to the players who have large screens or head tracking etc.

 

Are you suggesting that the new feature is equivalent to a traditional icon? :huh: Sincere question...

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I have difficulty seeing certain things. I have three sets of glasses. Used to have 20/15 corrected, but workng on a monitor now is increasingly difficult.

 

On the DoW server, flying with good pilots, I would have difficulty seeing what they clearly called out. Directing my eyes to a plane, I might see it. I might not. Sometimes I'm looking at the thing and it disappears, yet they still see it, sometimes from BEHIND me.

 

So, bad eyes. Check.

Average display? Umm... yes. CHECK.

 

I have 2 things going against me so, if I can gain an advantage that puts me on par, I'll freaking take it. For all I know, my particular hardware arrangement creates a bias against spotting as well as what my eyesight could do on a better system.

 

There is no way to ensure everyone has the same beginning setup, the same results or even a "realistic" experience. I do find it a little funny though. Those with the killer rigs might now have to fly against opponents that have traditionally had a spotting disadvantage, or complete spotting negation (like me), yet now can bring their game up to competitive levels. I don't see how that is a real issue. Well. Kinda. Yeah.... I can see how it is an issue, but it SHOULDN'T be.

 

I set the option for better visibility. I was seeing planes at distances that certainly feel like those at which other pilots in the squadron have called out bogies before. I was happy with it, and not concerned about being superman. Hell. Plenty folks fly zooming in on things to, and THAT certainly isn't realistic. Do we want to do away with that little feature about which no one complains?

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Are you suggesting that the new feature is equivalent to a traditional icon? :huh: Sincere question...

I don't know since I haven't tried it. I hope it's not like an icon since then servers will want to regulate it.

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Plenty folks fly zooming in on things to, and THAT certainly isn't realistic.

Actually depending on your monitor size and resolution the "zoom view" is what makes anything you see life size or with enough resolution to be realistic. The wide FOV in the game makes everything too small. Zoomed in is more like 1:1 except then your peripheral vision is hindered. Try putting zoom view on an axis or switch where you can easily zoom in and out.

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I don't know since I haven't tried it. I hope it's not like an icon since then servers will want to regulate it.

 

Oh, please try it then. I think you'll agree that it's nothing that servers should try to enforce (on or off) on the player.

 

I prefer the "normal" setting. It's just enough to prevent the aircraft from disappearing right in front of my eyes the way they would in 1.2. The "enlarged" setting is a bit much for my tastes and needs.

 

Well that's the only way to get things as real as it gets, plus the 180 degrees of view what human eye has ( or was it little less?)...

 

Flight sims are incredibly generous when comes to moving your head around. In a real aircraft you don't get that kind of visibility without loosening your straps and leaning your torso forward, and we do that while pulling 9g.


Edited by gavagai

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It is optional, just set it off in OPTIONS.

 

Do you even have played 1.5 beta?

 

FTW

 

I do even have played 1.5 plenty. If you re-read my posts you might gather what I was requesting.

 

It's not a mission specific setting from what I understand. My question pertained to mission building and enforcement. Can you enlighten me on this matter?

 

And Gavagai, I expected more from you. How was flying on my server today?

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Do you think it´s overly simple now?

 

Personally I don´t have this impression - is it easier in specific situations to spot enemy aircraft now? Yes I think so.

But I dont think it´s overyl simple or like having "magical eyes" now where you are able to spot every contact in an instant.

 

I am still forming my opinion of it as it is quite new. My point was concerning the enforcement of things that enhance capabilities if people agreed they negatively effected the game play. I'm totally fine with people disagreeing with my view & I've never tried to force anyone to agree. By all means host YOUR server any way you see fit.

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And Gavagai, I expected more from you. How was flying on my server today?

 

I don't think he was only replying to you Merlin. But I agree with Haukka81 that some are reacting in a way that would make one wonder if they've tried out the different visibility settings. Mentions of the new visibility leading to airquake are a good example of the hyperbole. Of course I expect that you've tried them out before forming an opinion.

 

And let's stay on topic.:thumbup:


Edited by gavagai

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I do even have played 1.5 plenty. If you re-read my posts you might gather what I was requesting.

 

It's not a mission specific setting from what I understand. My question pertained to mission building and enforcement. Can you enlighten me on this matter?

 

And Gavagai, I expected more from you. How was flying on my server today?

 

:book:

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Plenty folks fly zooming in on things too, and THAT certainly isn't realistic.

 

Yeah I think this is a good point. When did people just accept that unrealistic zooming was the best idea? For me ZOOMING is not realistic or satisfying. Maybe if you have been playing DCS for years and years it seems natural ... but if you are new to DCS it seems like an odd thing to have in a realistic sim. Some people might think that zooming is a compromise and not a feature that should be cherished.

 

In the bad old days there were no other techniques available for a pixel sampling problem like disappearing planes. Now we have DX11 shaders that can be used in the renderer and it could get to the point where we could actually remove zooming from the game. Maybe in the future there will be Server switches that turn Zooming off ... because it isn't realistic. Maybe it should be an option. Should Server Operators be able to disable zooming and visibility or any other unrealistic feature?

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My monitor is about 43.5 cm across. I sit approximately 75 cm away from the screen. This means that my horizontal field of view of the screen is approximately 32.3 degrees, which means I need to zoom the game view in to 32.3 degrees to have 1:1 realistic view (with the very glaring lack of peripheral vision). Most games have a fixed field of view around 70 to 90 degrees. Zoom is NOT unrealistic. this is why most simulators have zoom. what the correct zoom level is depends on the user's hardware and placement, and hardware can't be enforced by multiplayer servers.

 

FURTHERMORE: My monitor has 1050 pixels in the horizontal direction. If you divide 32.3 by 1050 you get about 0.03 degrees per pixel. Just according to Wikipedia the angular resolution of the human eye is about 0.02 degrees. this means that my monitor has 50% WORSE angular resolution than reality so it is not realistic to turn model visibility off. Not to mention that the typical zoomed out view that we spend most of our time flying in has significantly worse angular resolution. Without model visibility turned on, DCS does not have sub-pixel rendering, so it will simply be impossible to see an airplane that you should be able to spot in real life unless you turn on model visibility.

 

Bottom line is: model visibility settings and zoom are not unrealistic.


Edited by VincentLaw

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Yeah I think this is a good point. When did people just accept that unrealistic zooming was the best idea? For me ZOOMING is not realistic or satisfying. Maybe if you have been playing DCS for years and years it seems natural ... but if you are new to DCS it seems like an odd thing to have in a realistic sim. Some people might think that zooming is a compromise and not a feature that should be cherished.

 

In the bad old days there were no other techniques available for a pixel sampling problem like disappearing planes. Now we have DX11 shaders that can be used in the renderer and it could get to the point where we could actually remove zooming from the game. Maybe in the future there will be Server switches that turn Zooming off ... because it isn't realistic. Maybe it should be an option. Should Server Operators be able to disable zooming and visibility or any other unrealistic feature?

I would concur that. Zooming should be only inside the cockpit.

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I would concur that. Zooming should be only inside the cockpit.

And how on earth would that work? And it wouldn't be realistic at all.

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Zoom and view changes are needed until everyone of us play on the very same screen of the very same size and technical specs, of course giving a 1:1 scale view. Until then there's no point in comparing what every one of us see in their own screen and system specs and asking for features like that is worthless IMHO.

 

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Yeah I think this is a good point. When did people just accept that unrealistic zooming was the best idea? For me ZOOMING is not realistic or satisfying. Maybe if you have been playing DCS for years and years it seems natural ... but if you are new to DCS it seems like an odd thing to have in a realistic sim. Some people might think that zooming is a compromise and not a feature that should be cherished.

 

In the bad old days there were no other techniques available for a pixel sampling problem like disappearing planes. Now we have DX11 shaders that can be used in the renderer and it could get to the point where we could actually remove zooming from the game. Maybe in the future there will be Server switches that turn Zooming off ... because it isn't realistic. Maybe it should be an option. Should Server Operators be able to disable zooming and visibility or any other unrealistic feature?

Zooming is how you can see everything in the game life sized or with enough resolution to simulate reality

This is what your cockpit would look like at 1:1 scale. Unless you think a real A-10 cockpit is 18" wide. Why this fact needs constant explanation in flight sims I have no idea.

 

If you think zoom is unrealistic:

Can you read all the cockpit dials when you're zoomed out?

Could you read those same dials in your car?

Why do you think that is?

The cockpit is a good frame of reference for size, do you think that size applies to everything outside too?

Do you think a real cockpit is the size of what you see on a 24" monitor?

Can you read the runway directional signs in the game from the same distance that a real pilot could taxiing?

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Zoom and view changes are needed until everyone of us play on the very same screen of the very same size and technical specs, of course giving a 1:1 scale view. Until then there's no point in comparing what every one of us see in their own screen and system specs and asking for features like that is worthless IMHO.

 

S!

I think the reason some people have trouble with this whole "spotting" problem is simply that they don't understand how to use the zoom feature.

Why this feature is so misunderstood in sims I can't imagine why. I think its because people get used to playing other types of games where it's not needed. Call of Duty and such. "game" games are designed so the player isn't asked to simulate real world vision, all the targets are up close.

Sims give the player real world tasks and ranges which makes a 1080p screen insufficient.

Look at ARMA for example compared to Call of Duty, you're given a zoom view in for shooting at realistic distances.

Somebody in one these same discussions gave a good example of Euro Truck simulator which actually doesn't have a zoom view. The player can't even see their own dashboard or read road signs the way a real driver could. We all aren't fighter pilots but everyone can relate to driving a car, so that's a good example.

A montitor can't duplicate realistic peripheral vision and acuity at the same time. So you need to vary it constantly with the zoom view to stay aware. And I'm using a 4K screen and that hasn't alleviated the need to use the zoom. 4K is still far short of real eyesight.


Edited by SharpeXB

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Well that's the only way to get things as real as it gets, plus the 180 degrees of view what human eye has ( or was it little less?)...

 

 

Sightly incorrect... the human eye does have a wide angle of view in total, but only a very small amount of that, about 3° or so is able to use as focus, as in reading the dials, text, looking at a photo, etc

The peripheral vision, so many mention, is unfocused and senses only movement, provided awareness (meaning how that peripheral vision is brought to play) is used

 

 

 

The trouble with server settings is that there aren't enough players, particularly DCS WWII to even fill a single server let alone two.

I was hoping this MV effect would be so subtle that it would be akin to a graphic setting and nobody would mind it being a player setting rather than a server one. But if it's as obtrusive as icons I can see why people would want it server side.

 

 

and respectfully, therein lay the bug bear


Edited by Wolf Rider

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Zooming alone isn't an issue. It is welcome and mandatory in a flight sim. Zooming becomes an issue when it is the only way of spotting something in the vicinity near you where you would be able to spot it in real life without a problem.

 

The trouble with server settings is that there aren't enough players, particularly DCS WWII to even fill a single server let alone two.

 

I respectfully disagree. Definitely not on pair with other flight sims at the moment, that much is true. But there are more than plenty of them. Numbers will rise exponentially once Normandy map is out.

 

And that is why this feature / fix was requested.


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If you think zoom is unrealistic:

 

Can you read all the cockpit dials when you're zoomed out?

Could you read those same dials in your car?

Why do you think that is?

The cockpit is a good frame of reference for size, do you think that size applies to everything outside too?

Do you think a real cockpit is the size of what you see on a 24" monitor?

Can you read the runway directional signs in the game from the same distance that a real pilot could taxiing?

 

Yes, and no. I cannot "read" all the text on the analogue dials on my wee simulated P-51, but I can "see" enough info to judge my airspeed, height, manifold pressure, rpm, etc whilst fully zoomed out in the cockpit. That's the beauty of dials with hands - rather like clocks with hands, one doesn't need to read the numbers.

 

I don't drive. Never have, never will. What's your point?

 

I presume it is something to do with pixels-per-inch of the display on the monitor vs the effective resolution of my eyes.

 

Pardon? Is this a cow-the-size-of-a-house question? If the objects are viewed the same distance, then yes; otherwise yes, as long as we take in to account the size/distance scaling factor.

 

Short answer: No. Longer answer, depends where you are viewing it from surely. Even in a real cockpit you can cover a 4" dial with your thumb... if you hold said thumb close enough to your eye.

 

No. See monitor vs eyes answer above. This is a (current) hardware issue, surely?

 

----

 

I think the point, that has been missed, is that these days pilots (as far as I know) don't fly with a little telescope to spot enemy aircraft with. Nor to they have a little drone to get an external view, or have little blue labels on sticks above friendly aircraft, etc. "Realism" is a sliding scale, but I firmly believe that being able to "zoom" beyond what one could see my pressing your nose against the canopy and squinting really hard is blatantly unrealistic.

 

The main problem, however, is one of Balance. I personally am more than happy to sacrifice some absolute realism to allow a more level playing field. For example, allowing people who haven't blown several month's wages on dual Knobmeister-3000 graphics cards and a 4K monitor big enough to have apes worshipping it to compete on an equal footing with those that have.

 

How that is done is a separate issue... :P

My *new* AV-8B sim-pit build thread:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3901589

 

The old Spitfire sim-pit build thread circa '16/17:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=143452

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Here's an example of why we need a zoom view in a PC flight sims. A excerpt from A-10s Over Kosovo that describes what a pilot can see:

 

"At 20,000 feet and with my naked eyes, I could tell the target was not military—at least most of it wasn’t. It consisted of lots of colorful vehicles. I could see blues, reds, and a lot of bright silver from bumpers reflecting the sun."

 

Now the only way to duplicate this feat on a PC monitor is to use the zoom feature. And here are some screenshots from DCS showing that you can indeed do this. But MV sprites are going to substitute for zooming in. You can't ID targets with that.

image.thumb.jpeg.c270bfdfaf8a888bd85ed1e93002ac1a.jpeg

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