2000C in dogfights?

[rami80]

In anticipation for the release I wanted to know how the Mirage compares to some of the FC3 fighters. So say in the hands of equally good pilots who could use their planes to maximum potential, would the m2000 defeat the F-15 or Su-27?

[NORTHMAN]

F-15 will be an easy pray i think! Su-27, mmm... i'll guess at least a draw for now :smilewink:!

[Voodooflies]

We already discussed about it on some other threads. Most of FC3 owners are newbies, so... it's not that hard to deal with'em. However if you would compare the planes and only the planes, SU27 and F15C are better than the M2000C, mostly because of their loadouts, TWS, IRST... That said, I think the M2000C is better once BVR is reached into VR because the plane seems to be very agile, with sharper turns.

[Svend_Dellepude]

But poor sustaining energy compared to F-15, but let's see.

Looking very much forward to this module!

[Moos_tachu]

Nearly everything has already been said on the question...

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=147597

[[Knight]]

The plane is only as good as its pilot,that being said the 2000c would be worse in a dogfight than both because of the delta wing and the only advantage the delta wing would have over the two would be speed because of the payload and weight but that's asking a lot for 1 engine.:D

[Moos_tachu]

Rafale, Eurofighter and Gripen also have delta wing. For sure all these aircraft are known for being very bad in dogfight...... uuuh, wait :music_whistling:

[PiedDroit]

Rafale, Eurofighter and Gripen also have delta wing. For sure all these aircraft are known for being very bad in dogfight...... uuuh, wait :music_whistling:

All of them have canards ;)

[Moos_tachu]

Very limited impact on turn rate compared to slats, relaxed stability and FBW... and Mirage 2000 has them all.

 

Again, in dogfight M2000 is very close to F-16. That should give an idea.

[[Knight]]

And us as the 104th in f-15's don't use slats/flaps in a DF it kills speed and inertia in a sustained turn. A f-16 has max turn rate is just under 20 degrees a second @15000 and that is lower than the f-15 as it is around 22-23 of course there are a lot of various factors involved like altitude and weight but at or above 15000 feet the f-15 will win.

Edited October 5, 2015 by [Knight]

[Moos_tachu]

M2000 slats are not manual, they are automatically operated by the FBW system to optimize handling depending on flight parameters. So whenever they are deployed, it's for the best.

 

And above 15000 ft is also where the 2000 is at its best...

[sungsam]

The fate of an F-16 dogfighting a M2K is in the gun sights of M2K eventually ! After that there is no way to brake lock ! :smilewink:

Edited October 5, 2015 by sungsam

[jojo]

;2503969']And us as the 104th in f-15's don't use slats/flaps in a DF it kills speed and inertia in a sustained turn. A f-16 has max turn rate is just under 20 degrees a second @15000 and that is lower than the f-15 as it is around 22-23 of course there are a lot of various factors involved like altitude and weight but at or above 15000 feet the f-15 will win.

 

On one hand, yes it's true that F-15 has probably better sustain rate. This is delta wing drawback, otherwise all planes would have delta wing.

 

On the other hand your F-15 would be around 14°/s sustain rate at 15000 ft...which is already good.

Edited October 5, 2015 by jojo

[NORTHMAN]

poor F-16... viper should stay BVR!

[Hummingbird]

;2503969']And us as the 104th in f-15's don't use slats/flaps in a DF it kills speed and inertia in a sustained turn. A f-16 has max turn rate is just under 20 degrees a second @15000 and that is lower than the f-15 as it is around 22-23 of course there are a lot of various factors involved like altitude and weight but at or above 15000 feet the f-15 will win.

 

The sustained turn rate of the F-15C w/ 4x AIM-9's + 4x AIM-120's at 15,000 ft is about 11.5 deg/sec, where'as the sustained turn rate of the F-16C w/ 2x AIM-9 + 4x AIM-120's is around 13 deg/sec at the same altitude. Info taken from the performance manuals.

 

The Mirage's strength however is not STR but ITR, and thus it cannot be compared directly with the F-16. The Mirage however does boast a 12.5 deg/sec sustained turn rate at 15,000 ft w/ 2x IR missiles, thus it does beat or at least match the F-15 here. In terms of ITR however the Mirage is clearly superior with a near 24 deg/sec turn rate at 15k where'as the F-15 is at about 21 deg/sec. This combined with better high alpha capability will make dogfighting the Mirage in the F-15 a not so good idea, instead in the F-15 you should rely on your much superior BVR capability.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Hummingbird

[fixen]

poor F-16... viper should stay BVR!

 

The crowd that video attracts is really something else. I also think that the video does not say much about aircraft performance. Just looking at the title I know enough. Military equipment video's on youtube always get a cesspool of hate comments.

"We are better than you". "No, we are better". The pathetic thing is a lot of them are not even kids.

[sedenion]

The crowd that video attracts is really something else. I also think that the video does not say much about aircraft performance. Just looking at the title I know enough. Military equipment video's on youtube always get a cesspool of hate comments.

"We are better than you". "No, we are better". The pathetic thing is a lot of them are not even kids.

 

Well, a more "serious" information:

 

Les dogfights entre mirages et F16 belges sont tellement courants et depuis tant d'années...

 

Petit récapitulatif : 2000 C vs F16 belges A/B, bon avec du recul on peut le dire maintenant, en BVR les 2000 l'emportaient le plus souvent.

 

2000 C vs F16 MLU, en dog ça se tient, en BVR les 2000 C se font allumer (amram pour les F16, Super 530 D pour les 2000, d'où ces derniers désavantagés car par multi cible, ce qui ne leur empeche pas de réussir à mettre quelques belles raclées de temps en temps)

 

[ snipe ... this part talk about 2000-5 in BVR ... ]

 

Dogfight pur Mirage 2000 vs F16 : grosso modo le F16 est plus endurant, mais le Mirage a le gros avantage d'avoir un instant turn rate largement supérieur. Les deux avions ont une excellente manoeuvrabilité par ailleurs.

 

Donc en gros le Mirage a une réelle supérirorité en début de dog face au F16, mais le 2000 dégradant plus par la suite, le F16 peut ensuite reprendre le dessus si le F16 a pas été abattu dans les permières minutes du dog...

Source: http://www.air-defense.net/forum/topic/5506-f-16-belges-vs-mirages-francais/

 

(poor, but corrected) translation:

 

The dogfights between Belgian F-16 and (french) mirages are so common and since many years...

 

Small summary: 2000C vs Belgian F16 A/B, in BVR the 2000 win most often.

2000C vs F16 MLU in dog it holds, in BVR 2000C get under heavy fire (amram for F16, Super 530 D for 2000, which disadvantaged them because no multi target, which does not prevent them to succeed to put some nice beatings occasionally)

[...]

 

pure Dogfight Mirage 2000 vs F16: roughly the F16 is more enduring, but the Mirage has the great advantage of having a much higher instantaneous turning rate. Both aircraft have excellent maneuverability anyway.

 

So basically the Mirage has a real superiority beginning of facing the F16, but the 2000 most degrading thereafter, the F16 can then get over it if the F16 has not been slaughtered within first minutes of dogfight...

 

(hope the translation is understandable)

Edited October 18, 2015 by sedenion

[Hummingbird]

In BVR the F-16 is superior to the Mirage simply due to having AMRAAMs, so don't expect a Mirage to win that fight if fighting a F-16C at least.

 

In a close range dogfight however the two are very evenly matched, with the Mirage having the advantage in ITR whilst the F-16 has the advantage in STR.

 

Also in terms of radar they are about equal, IIRC the Mirage has a 5 km advantage in detection range against targets in the air.

[MBot]

In BVR the F-16 is superior to the Mirage simply due to having AMRAAMs, so don't expect a Mirage to win that fight if fighting a F-16C at least.

 

I think it is worth to note that the F-16A/C did not have a BVR capability at all until 1992, while the Mirage 2000C had it since 1984.

[Hummingbird]

I think it is worth to note that the F-16A/C did not have a BVR capability at all until 1992, while the Mirage 2000C had it since 1984.

 

The first F-16 with BVR capability was the F-16C block 25 with its AN/APG-68 radar and Sparrow missiles, and funny enough it entered service in 1984.

 

By 1992 the F-16 was flying around with AMRAAMs.

[PiedDroit]

Well, a more "serious" information:

 

Source: http://www.air-defense.net/forum/topic/5506-f-16-belges-vs-mirages-francais/

 

(poor) translation:

 

The dogfights between Belgian F-16 and (french) mirages are so common and since many years...

 

Small summary: 2000C vs Belgian F16 A/B, in BVR the 2000 win most often.

 

2000C vs F16 MLU in dog it stands[holds], in BVR 2000C are light[shot down*] (amram for F16, Super D 530 for 2000, which disadvantaged them because by[no**] multi target, which does not preclude[prevent] them to succeed to put some nice scraped[beatings] occasionally)

 

[...]

 

pure Dogfight Mirage 2000 vs F16: roughly the F16 is more enduring, but the Mirage has the great advantage of having a much higher instantaneous turning rate. Both aircraft have excellent maneuverability anyway.

 

So basically the Mirage has a real superiority beginning of facing the F16, but the 2000 most degrading thereafter, the F16 can then get over it if the F16 has not been slaughtered within first minutes of dogfight...

 

(hope the translation is understandable)

I fixed some slang terms in your translation ;)

 

*: better translation would be "get under heavy fire"

**: there's a typo in the french text, should be "pas" instead of "par"

Edited October 18, 2015 by PiedDroit

[sedenion]

I fixed some slang terms in your translation ;)

 

(*) there's a typo in the french text, should be "pas" instead of "par"

 

Thanks, i will edit my post...

[Corsair]

The first F-16 with BVR capability was the F-16C block 25 with its AN/APG-68 radar and Sparrow missiles, and funny enough it entered service in 1984.

 

By 1992 the F-16 was flying around with AMRAAMs.

 

AIM-120A with rather poor kinematics. The RDI/530D duo is a strong counterpart.

And by the way, MLU Vipers were introduced not before mid 90s, They lacked BVR capability before that.

[MBot]

The first F-16 with BVR capability was the F-16C block 25 with its AN/APG-68 radar and Sparrow missiles, and funny enough it entered service in 1984.

 

Can you elaborate on this? As far as I know the first operational use of AIM-7 on US Vipers was with the ANG F-16A block 15 ADF modification in the beginning of the 90s. While the AN/APG-68 was compatible with the AIM-7, I do not think the USAF ever fielded Sparrows with F-16C.

 

You do have a point though that Egyptian F-16C went operational with AIM-7 in 1986.

 

So at least as the European theater was concerned, the Mirage 2000C was leading the F-16 by 8 years with a BVR capability.

[Hummingbird]

There's more information on the F-16 here:

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article5.html