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dogfighting tips? books? accounts?


WildBillKelsoe
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Hi, I have a hard time getting a phantom in the saddle. What is the mode of fighting in Mig-21 and does it rely on rudder use? I find the typical phantom just zooms up under my nose and as I am struggling to saddle him, he executes the typical, superhuman, vertical maneuver. I either follow suite and bleed off into a stall where the controllability ceases and the shuddering intensifies, or just kill speed and pop brakes to slow down under his shadow just enough to get a feeling where he will turn without overshooting him. The latter seems to work (I think 21 is faster than 4E), but speed bleeding in a brake is less pronounced unless throttle is idled.

 

Also, I found out that mapping AB100% detent button can help with finer speed management, even in landing.

 

Aside from Yefim Gordon's book which appears to be pictorial guide, are there books of true accounts how they flew her in a combat scenario or a real mission?

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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Hello,

 

The MiG-21 never was a "pure" dogfighter (contrary to aircraft like F-16 or MiG-29).

 

However it can be a dangerous contender to aircraft like F-4 Phantom II on dogfights.

 

In the "dogfight mission" against the German F-4 I managed to consistently get on his rear quarter by:

 

- maintaining between 650 - 750 kph speed in sustained turn rate;

- insist on a turning fight, (as the F-4 has superior climb / vertical capability);

- do not maintain very high speeds if he's trying to reverse his turn on you (when he's forcing a "1 circle fight";

 

Only allow my speed to drop below 400 kph (not desirable) when:

- I'm already near his 6 o clock, and;

- when I'm going to gain those angles to point my nose at him.

 

Hope it helps.


Edited by Top Jockey

HANGAR

JETS  FlamingCliffs 3 | MiG-21 bis | Mirage 2000C | F-14 A/B | F-16C | F/A-18C

HELIS :  Mi-8 MTV2

 

SPECS :  i7 4790k , 16 GB DDR3 , GeForce GTX 1660Ti 6 GB , Samsung 860 QVO

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I hadn't fought the MiG-21 against the F-4E for a while (been focusing on the F-5E recently), so I just flew a quick mission to refresh my memory.

 

Your question about the rudder is a good one: the rudder really is the primary flight control for roll in most MiG-21 dogfights (for me) since you spend so much time at high AOA. Above 15-20 units of AOA, the rudder is the only means of rolling the aircraft, but roll authority is quite good. The MiG-21 is also really good at rudder rolls (like a small barrel roll) and it's an excellent counter against rolling maneuvers by your opponent.

 

I also found that the AI in the Phantom really favors barrel rolls, displacement rolls, and yo-yos, in addition to the classic vertical maneuvers of the Phantom. You can use rudder rolls (which the MiG-21 seems to do quite well) or true barrel rolls to counter this very effectively and keep the nose ahead of his flight path. You can gain the advantage pretty quickly using this approach.

 

Unless I'm already in a favorable firing position, I don't follow the phantom into the vertical. I use an inclined bank (with varying degrees of inclination based on energy) to keep him in-sight. Once he is headed back down and you can determine his direction of flight, either use a rudder roll or adjust/reverse your turn to achieve a favorable angle.

 

Finally, I keep my speed between 500-800 kph. My STR seems quite good around 500-600 kph, but you have to watch your energy and avoid stalls since you are at or below corner speed. Luckily, the MiG-21 offers excellent auditory feedback to help you keep AOA between 20-30, which seems to offer the best turning performance for me at mid to low speeds. There is also a new auditory cue since the 1.5.1 upgrade that gives you feedback on how many G's your pulling (a roaring sound that increases in volume/coarseness as G increases). This really helps to maintain optimum G during maneuvers and allows you to fine tune control inputs to maximize available G as your energy state changes (while keeping your eyes out of the cockpit and on your opponent - this might be the most important part of the whole engagement).

 

Hadwell shared this reference a few months ago, I found it quite helpful too:

 

http://navyflightmanuals.tpub.com/P-1222/index.htm

 

The MiG-21 is a very competent dogfighter and performs very well at high AOA. Real air combat depends on much more than just STR/ITR and very few aircraft had the luxury of being developed with only STR/ITR/rate of climb in mind - most others had to carry payload, certain sensors, certain performance requirements (commonly top speed and rate of climb for the MiG-21's era). It could use better sensors for fighting modern western fighters, but it's aerodynamic performance is quite good. It was designed to fight other airplanes and with the right tactics and piloting, it will do that quite well.

 

Best,

 

-Nick

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Read these reports:

Have donut

&

Make the best of the Mig-21

 

Then there is a book I can reccomend:

 

Scream of Eagles by Robert K. Wilcox

--> why and how they invented TopGun

 

 

Then there is Boyd:

Aerial Attack Study

 

At latest on this point, you should put your nose on some EM-charts. --> for axample here http://de.slideshare.net/mishanbgd/fighter-performance-in-practice-f4-phantom-vs-mig21


Edited by HugePanic
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Read these reports:

Have donut

&

Make the best of the Mig-21

 

Then there is a book I can reccomend:

 

Scream of Eagles by Robert K. Wilcox

--> why and how they invented TopGun

 

 

Then there is Boyd:

Aerial Attack Study

 

At latest on this point, you should put your nose on some EM-charts. --> for axample here http://de.slideshare.net/mishanbgd/fighter-performance-in-practice-f4-phantom-vs-mig21

 

some great reads. thanks!

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I had exactly the same problem; I could get behind, but not with enough energy to press the advantage to get the kill.

 

I found the mistake I was making was trying too hard to gain angles at the expense of energy. Don't pull on the stick any harder than you have to so once you are in position, you can close for the kill.

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I had exactly the same problem; I could get behind, but not with enough energy to press the advantage to get the kill.

 

I found the mistake I was making was trying too hard to gain angles at the expense of energy. Don't pull on the stick any harder than you have to so once you are in position, you can close for the kill.

 

 

Sometimes it works in horizontal, sometimes it works in a circle chase. Not ever in a vertical chase.

 

I´m sorry, but the MiG-21Bis a worse climber than a F-4??:huh:

 

Well... this is new.

 

Since there´re too much of you who believe that, I´m going to pull the white flag beforehand and just say that I may not agree with that.

 

Cheers.:)

 

Yes, but do tell why you think otherwise.

 

Guys I may have not been clear: I am talking about a pure gun kill. Not missile kill.

 

Editorial:

 

The link about the 1967 split-S is complete rubbish. No body was human to sustain that G-load which is clearly less than the flight manual entry altitude. Again, media tends to create heroes after superhuman events:

1- 1973 rocketeer pilot grazing the floor in high AoA.

2- WW2 P-51 pilot reverse thrusting into a BF-109 (which is clearly a desperate snap roll that just put the target on his nose)

3- This Split-S '67 mumbo. I can say with confidence it is impossible after so many dirt naps from executing it, with idle thrust, boards out, and so little altitude to recover.


Edited by WildBillKelsoe

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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I'm not a dogfighter, but f4 vs 21 instant action is a good 10 mintes entertainment.

80% is a mig victory and the rest is a bingo fuel, the f4 will never stick on your tail if you keep an eye on aoa,g meter,ias and yes the phantom. Sometimes he will zoom out vertically and what? He has to comedown :)

But due to the targetting system and limited rounds, fire only when you are really really close.

 

 

 

Inviato dal mio G7-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

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Sometimes it works in horizontal, sometimes it works in a circle chase. Not ever in a vertical chase.

 

 

 

Yes, but do tell why you think otherwise.

 

Guys I may have not been clear: I am talking about a pure gun kill. Not missile kill.

 

Editorial:

 

The link about the 1967 split-S is complete rubbish. No body was human to sustain that G-load which is clearly less than the flight manual entry altitude. Again, media tends to create heroes after superhuman events:

1- 1973 rocketeer pilot grazing the floor in high AoA.

2- WW2 P-51 pilot reverse thrusting into a BF-109 (which is clearly a desperate snap roll that just put the target on his nose)

3- This Split-S '67 mumbo. I can say with confidence it is impossible after so many dirt naps from executing it, with idle thrust, boards out, and so little altitude to recover.

 

That's what we are talking about.

 

I'll try to be more specific.

 

When at the Phantom's 6 o'clock, I get the feeling the MiG-21 has a somewhat small flight "envelope" (speed / AoA / stall / pitch rate / etc. ) to successfully engage with guns:

 

- you can never be "too close", or the slightest angle-off change from the Phantom will instantly remove him from your sights;

 

- frequently you will have to get at really low speeds +- 300 kph in order not to get too close, or even overtake him;

 

- doing that however, you will also lose some agility and pitch authority - so there's a dynamic compromise between your air speed and distance to target - take the shot whenever is possible.

 

Hope this helps.


Edited by Top Jockey

HANGAR

JETS  FlamingCliffs 3 | MiG-21 bis | Mirage 2000C | F-14 A/B | F-16C | F/A-18C

HELIS :  Mi-8 MTV2

 

SPECS :  i7 4790k , 16 GB DDR3 , GeForce GTX 1660Ti 6 GB , Samsung 860 QVO

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much clearer now. Thanks. I don't know but I open my AB and just fire a long line infront of him, sometimes he gets in, sometimes he doesn't. Guess I need to sharpen up my skills.

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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I´m sorry, but the MiG-21Bis a worse climber than a F-4??:huh:

 

Well... this is new.

 

Since there´re too much of you who believe that, I´m going to pull the white flag beforehand and just say that I may not agree with that.

 

Cheers.:)

 

Phantom has the bigger thrust to weight ratio.

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Phantom has the bigger thrust to weight ratio.

 

0.86/0.58(MTOW) for F-4, 0.79/1.11 (emergency 2nd AB) for Mig-21.

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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The trick I found to beating the F4 is to keep energy high. Have afterburner on at all times unless you risk overshooting the target while lining up the shot.

 

Make sure to keep the needle on the AOA meter out of the yellow and red areas while turning after the F4. Only go into the yellow or red area if you are close to the F4 and you are willing to make a hard turn after him to keep behind him at the expense of loosing energy.

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There are many more factors that affect climbing performance, not only thrust to weight.:)

 

And as WildBill pointed out, the emergency afterburner (that is not so much for emergencies) change the perspective.

 

Notably, lift/drag ratio. Even rockets with no wings at all have a L/D ratio that affects their rate of climb (all 'lift' is thrust generated by the engine in this case), which is why they generally have pointy noses to reduce drag.

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21 is more of a cigar.

 

Sent from my SM-T231 using Tapatalk

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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  • 1 year later...

I'm not sure if this is realistic but I always keep an SPRD pod instead of flares for a gun fight and when i cant handle a huge turn which get me behind the phantom, I flick that switch and rocket propel myself behind him.:smartass:

In order to successfully "play" DCS, you need:

 

1. A Supercomputer

 

2. The budget of the US department of defense

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