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Su-27 'flanker' actually means evade incoming F-15C all the time?


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Any Su-27 flyers who can confirm?

 

Know how to fly F-15C and for a while now Su-25T.

 

Just started exploring Su-27 and in the sample mission facing 2 F-15C (guarding 2 bombers) it's seems hardly an even match.

Su-27 missiles don't have the first contact range of the F-15C.

 

So in a situation like this you just have to flank the incoming flight I suppose and sneak up on them in a turnaround loop? Sneak out of F-15C radar to the side, than reverse to the rear of the flight?

 

This how this is done?

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except when the eagle is at 50k ft and M1.4

 

then, the eagle just looks right down in to that valley

 

and rolls inverted, goes idle to IRCM and foxes on you from 20nm

 

and you can't shoot back

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Any Su-27 flyers who can confirm?

 

Know how to fly F-15C and for a while now Su-25T.

 

Just started exploring Su-27 and in the sample mission facing 2 F-15C (guarding 2 bombers) it's seems hardly an even match.

Su-27 missiles don't have the first contact range of the F-15C.

 

So in a situation like this you just have to flank the incoming flight I suppose and sneak up on them in a turnaround loop? Sneak out of F-15C radar to the side, than reverse to the rear of the flight?

 

This how this is done?

 

To clarify, you are having difficulties getting to launch range before they do?

 

Because often if I find too many people fall into the belief that the Su-27 is a poor BVR craft when in reality it holds up extremely well at extremely long ranges. Never leave out the option of the long range.

 

There are multiple things that define how the Su-27 can fight in the BVR and help or hinder. Here are some questions that may help...

 

1.)What missiles do both parties have. The R-27ER has about 20% better range than than the AIM-120 at equal altitude and speed (according to max launch ranges at best conditions).

 

2.)What missile do you have selected? You may just be selecting the R-27ET or R-73, neither of these missiles make good for a head-on fight (due to the limits of their heat-seekers).

 

3.)Launch position? If you have time try to get above the Eagles, you can further enforce your range advantage upon him. Also use speed to get a better launch, and proceed to slow down (flying off to the side as you hold lock) to delay the F-15 his ability to launch.

 

4.)Jammers on both parties? Jammers may by loud but they decrease the effectiveness of missiles as you get farther and farther away from the launch platform (never use Jammers when you are close, you make yourself easy prey that way). Use Jammers if you are beyond 45km at the start of the engagement (any less and you will quickly become to close to use jammers)

 

5.)How many of them are there? In your case two. This complicates matters as your SARH missiles dont allow you to fire on more than one target at first (thus the second one can fire on you as you deal with the first one). I would recommend that you find the close F-15 (if that is possible), get into range and fire as fast as possible (firing off a pair because of the poor hit-rate of the R-27E series at those ranges). There is a good chance you can down the first eagle before the second one gets too much time to fire. Again this is tricky and requires lots of practice with timing.

 

In the end you want to

 

1.)Know your Missiles

2.)Enforce your Range Advantage

3.)Use technology at hand to better your chances of survival

4.)Equalize your odds as fast as possible

 

Dont fall into the sterotype my friend, and also dont judge your skill fighting the AI (they cheat :joystick: ). Enjoy your time with this wonderful aircraft! Its flexibility and power allows you to be very creative with your approach to any fight and allows you to engage Eagles in almost any situation quite well.

 

Thanks for reading,

TheFurNinja


Edited by TheFurNinja
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1.)What missiles do both parties have. The R-27ER has about 20% better range than than the AIM-120 at equal altitude and range (according to max launch ranges at best conditions).

 

 

thx, I'll rearm

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except when the eagle is at 50k ft and M1.4

 

then, the eagle just looks right down in to that valley

 

and rolls inverted, goes idle to IRCM and foxes on you from 20nm

 

and you can't shoot back

 

Pretty easy to get out of the radar FOV most of the time.

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since several months I don't play the Flanker in MP as some of its features are broken - my ideal state was in FC2, both the eagle and flankers missiles seemed more authentic. In SP, I find it rather easy to face amraam armed fighters, nonetheless it remains a funny and challenging practice. I rly hope that with the release of 1.5 the AAM model gets a serious rebuild. As an advice, to successfully fight eagles in SP, I suggest to use the range "advantage" the ER has over the 120, and to try to find a good position from which attack the enemy; head on jousting normally is not a very effective tactic. In case there are wingmen, I'd normally use them as cannon fodder and try to get some advantage from situation they could open up engaging their eagle colleagues. I know it's not very realistic, but right now AI wingmen in DCS seem to be made primarily to die and even if you don't get creative with them, they will anyway end up that way.

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I don't think so. ER chaff resistance doesn't matter a lot when your opponent can just fire and turn around.
Given that they can get well within firing range, it does take time to pitbull. That is enough time to usually slam a few ERs into them.

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I don't think so. ER chaff resistance doesn't matter a lot when your opponent can just fire and turn around.

 

IF they turn around, just make a small correction to heading and push harder. As their missiles are going to miss you if they don't guide them in to final. AFAIK the tactics anyways are to keep locked to single target all the way instead using TWS etc.

 

Use the speed and range in Su-27+R-27ER as your benefit to force eagles to defensive as they are dead if trying to get you first. Good pair launching (R-27ET+ER) is tricky thing to avoid by Eagle pilots.

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ED, give us the R-77 for the Flanker. ;)

 

Sadly the Su-27S is not compatible, but don't forget it's little brother: MiG-29 (which can carry it). Lucky us though the Su-33 is about to be finished (flight model wise). I hope it gets its R-77s and TWS2 (among other features).

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IF they turn around, just make a small correction to heading and push harder. As their missiles are going to miss you if they don't guide them in to final. AFAIK the tactics anyways are to keep locked to single target all the way instead using TWS etc.

 

Use the speed and range in Su-27+R-27ER as your benefit to force eagles to defensive as they are dead if trying to get you first. Good pair launching (R-27ET+ER) is tricky thing to avoid by Eagle pilots.

 

+1 knows his stuff. Without the pitbull or it being actively guided at you by the host aircraft, you can just turn out of the missiles path and it goes dumb.


Edited by TheFurNinja

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ED could always step up our beloved Su-27 to a slightly more modern variant that is compatible with the R-77. Such development should be fluid, as it is in the real world.

 

Lucky us though the Su-33 is about to be finished (flight model wise). I hope it gets its R-77s and TWS2 (among other features).

 

^^^ ...could you back that up with some evidence? Posts, screenshots, etc?

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ED could always step up our beloved Su-27 to a slightly more modern variant that is compatible with the R-77. Such development should be fluid, as it is in the real world.

 

 

 

^^^ ...could you back that up with some evidence? Posts, screenshots, etc?

 

Oh silly me now that I look I can't find any!:doh:

 

Im pretty sure I was mistakenlty thinking about proposed upgrades to the flanker D. But regaurdless the MiG-29K can and later Flankers can still carry R-77s.

 

Still missing the Su-33s other equipment though. :(

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ED could always step up our beloved Su-27 to a slightly more modern variant that is compatible with the R-77. Such development should be fluid, as it is in the real world.

 

As much as we would all love that, it's not that simple. It requires a lot of work to even make a new version of an existing plane.

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As much as we would all love that, it's not that simple. It requires a lot of work to even make a new version of an existing plane.

 

Plus aren't all the more modern Su-27s fitted with 3xMFCDs and the offside EO sensor? That would require more than some reworking of the Su-27. That would require re-working the 3d model and the cockpit (the later almost entirely).

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Such a fight is only ever going to be in the Eagles favour, you are limited to using an R-27 against his much more capable AIM-120, in real life the F-15 driver would have a massive advantage there, hence why the Russians made the R-77, to try to even the playing field, the problem is that the Su-27 modelled in the the sim can't use that.

 

If you fly the MiG-29S then you get that capability, so I would suggest that if you fly the Su-27 then you need to learn to fight the fights you can win in it.

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Such a fight is only ever going to be in the Eagles favour, you are limited to using an R-27 against his much more capable AIM-120, in real life the F-15 driver would have a massive advantage there, hence why the Russians made the R-77, to try to even the playing field, the problem is that the Su-27 modelled in the the sim can't use that.

 

If you fly the MiG-29S then you get that capability, so I would suggest that if you fly the Su-27 then you need to learn to fight the fights you can win in it.

Im actually getting really tired of the whole "F-15 is superior in a BVR Engagement" speil.

 

So if I may ask, what makes the F-15 (with its AIM-120s) superior to a Su-27 with its ERs and ETs?

 

Now I get that the F-15 has a much better TWS and also (when pitbull) can go full defensive as his missiles can track on their own.

 

But what I fail to see is how an F-15, with its shorter range AIM-120s is superior to the Su-27s longer ranging missiles. This is because as the Su-27 gets the range advantage (kinematically), it fires first. Firing first means the F-15 gets two choices

 

1.)Run (trash the Su-27s Missiles and show a hot tailpipe for the Su-27s EO sensor)

or

2.)Fly through the gauntlet of ERs so that he may get within range to fire a AIM-120. Which has no guarantee of hitting its target until the missile goes pitbull.

 

So again I ask (because im genuinely confused), why is it superior?


Edited by TheFurNinja

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I don't think so. ER chaff resistance doesn't matter a lot when your opponent can just fire and turn around.

 

I disagree, as has already been explained by others. On previous patch i had a lot of fun shooting ERs at 40/35 km and scoring hits against not very focused F15 pilots while i was cranking and diving away from AIM120. ERs reach them before AIM120 reaches you. And by the time they do, if your own ER misses you still have some options, or just extend.

 

Now ERs are crap and bugged (and unfortunately no one from ED mentioned anything about our bug report, yet), they just are useless for BVR. It only takes a couple of degrees offset, a couple of chaffs and that's all, specially on MP which makes it even worse.

 

On current patch i haven´t been able to score a single ER hit beyond 15km.

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Now ERs are crap and bugged (and unfortunately no one from ED mentioned anything about our bug report, yet), they just are useless for BVR. It only takes a couple of degrees offset, a couple of chaffs and that's all, specially on MP which makes it even worse.

 

ER wont even lock?

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I don't think so. ER chaff resistance doesn't matter a lot when your opponent can just fire and turn around.

 

 

So to know that every ER will head right to the chaff, even the chaff was released way before the release of the ER doesn't matter?

Do I miss something important?

ALL ERs are useless right now! So again; what's the point you try to tell us?

I myself thought till today to have a good weapon will force my opponent into a disadvantage and so he cannot "fire at me and turn around" all the time.

This "behavior" is now standard because of the "bugged" ERs.

I would really like to know why the knowledge that an ER will face every chaff in the air but not the illuminated target is not a big problem!?

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ER wont even lock?

 

Right now the RADAR will lock, the enemy releases a single chaff, you fire your ER with a valid lock, as soon as the missile is released the missile will every single time face the former released chaff even you never lost your RADAR lock of the enemy plane.

Sounds "funny" but it isn't.

The DCS Su27 never could show how good she really is but with this latest patch she is useless in every aspect.

Now the range advantage is a range disadvantage and if you can go in a dogfight the 73 will eat every flare in the air, your wingmans back or even your own afterburner, but not the F15C. And now the F15C can outturn a Su27 at higher AoA. :huh:

 

Hope ED will fix only some of this points with the next patch!


Edited by Nedum

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