DCS: Me 262 Discussion (Development on hold currently)

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

More like a strike eagle of ww2 or an f105.

 

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[Enduro14]

Nope more like a A10c in my mind, P-47 had more effect on the ground war than the air war by huge margins. Just look at the ground kill count for the 47's, hence why its called a fighter bomber.... but either way look forward to it if it does come so we can do those epic hunter killer missions in Normandy.

[some1]

A-10 was designed from the start as a ground attack aircraft. Some say the plane was designed around the gun....

 

If you look inside P-47 you will notice a huge turbocharger that takes most of the space inside the fuselage. It's heavy, expensive and useless at low altitudes, but they put it there because the aircraft was designed first and foremost as a high altitude fighter. It just happened to be good in the ground attack role too, partly because there were not enough air targets by the time it entered combat and it wasn't suitable for escort missions due to its limited range.

[Art-J]

Indeed, designed form the start as a high altitude interceptor, it couldn't even carry any air to ground ordnance until D-15 variant. And let's not forget it was 8th AF's workhorse throughout the whole 1943, bleeding out Luftwaffe over Western Europe before Mustangs came in spring '44. Pretty efficiently too - for some reason most people think of Mustang when 8th AF is mentioned, but of all fighter groups of it, it was the 56th flying Thunderbolts, which got the highest air to air number of kills during the war. "More effect on the ground war than air war"? Nah. Maybe from mid '44 onwards when there was not much to shoot down anymore, but before - it was just the opposite.

 

Though given the reality of online air combat in any WWII game, it probably won't be that successful in DCS.

 

How did we end up discussing Thunderbolt in 262 thread anyway? :D

[Solty]

Indeed, designed form the start as a high altitude interceptor, it couldn't even carry any air to ground ordnance until D-15 variant. And let's not forget it was 8th AF's workhorse throughout the whole 1943, bleeding out Luftwaffe over Western Europe before Mustangs came in spring '44. Pretty efficiently too - for some reason most people think of Mustang when 8th AF is mentioned, but of all fighter groups of it, it was the 56th flying Thunderbolts, which got the highest air to air number of kills during the war. "More effect on the ground war than air war"? Nah. Maybe from mid '44 onwards when there was not much to shoot down anymore, but before - it was just the opposite.

 

Though given the reality of online air combat in any WWII game, it probably won't be that successful in DCS.

 

How did we end up discussing Thunderbolt in 262 thread anyway? :D

 

Mustangs came in October 1943 in form of P-51B. In spring 1944 Mustang P-51D arrived.

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

I think it will be interesting to see the level of fidelity never before seen in a ww2 sin especially for a 262. The challenge more or less will be in starting the plane without blowing up. Taxiing takeoff and landings. Something the 262 was known to not be easy at doing. More so the flight characteristics in the high speed subsonic regions. One will not be able to simply firewall the throttles lest they want to flame out a turbine. It'll be a complicated process of tiny throttle movements to keep speed and watching your airspeed to make sure you don't max out the airframe and lose control even in level flight as we can see with the f86 and the MiG15. Further more the mk108 30mm guns will be interesting to employ. Let alone if they allow the attachment of a2a/a2g rockets and free fall bombs as originally intended by Messerschmitt. It's gonna be a helluva fun plane. I look forward to making the skies burn with B17s and unwary mustangs spits bolts and warhawks ( if it ever comes)

 

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[MegOhm_SD]

I look forward to making the skies burn with B17s and unwary mustangs spits bolts and warhawks ( if it ever comes)

 

Well, I look forward to shooting down 262s during take off to prevent just that since it would be rare to have that opportunity at speed. But there is always the chance of a passing shot although with low probabilty of success. You can bet the Allies will be monitoring airfields for the 262 just waiting for one to lift off. If not we will get you when landing just for the historical satisfaction, "Meat On The Table". Never cared for the plane, will never fly one. I just want to kill them. :thumbup:

 

My feeling is you won't be very succesful against the fighters, unless you sneak up on them and have good gunnery skills. If they see you coming and they go evasive you will most likely over fly them.

 

Hopefully, the B17s will have decent gunners and the formations will give you "what for" such that you will be deterred or smoked. At any rate you will mostly have passing shots on the bombers. I wonder how many of those it would take to "make the skies burn" with them. I cant see that happening with one sortie. Whats the flight time in a 262?

 

<S>

Edited January 25, 2017 by MegOhm_SD

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Well, I look forward to shooting down 262s during take off to prevent just that since it would be rare to have that opportunity at speed. But there is always the chance of a passing shot although with low probabilty of success. You can bet the Allies will be monitoring airfields for the 262 just waiting for one to lift off. If not we will get you when landing just for the historical satisfaction. Never cared for the plane, will never fly one. I just want to kill them.

 

<S>

All up to the mission designer and CAP cover. Then again strafing a pilot on T/O or landing would not be very gentlemanly now would it.

 

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[MiloMorai]

All up to the mission designer and CAP cover. Then again strafing a pilot on T/O or landing would not be very gentlemanly now would it.

 

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Are you saying the Allied pilots of WW2 in the ETO were not gentlemen?;)

[MegOhm_SD]

All up to the mission designer and CAP cover. Then again strafing a pilot on T/O or landing would not be very gentlemanly now would it.

 

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We are all for historical accuracy, are we not?

 

"Meat On the Table"!

 

All is fair in Love and War. This is War!

Edited January 25, 2017 by MegOhm_SD

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

Haha not saying they were all gentlemen. I just take the personal mantra of not shooting a guy on his t o or landing. Heck in today's dcs if someone makes it back to land then they deserve the landing haha

 

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[Kippy]

...

The 262 is a very capable airframe, and is a plane to be very scared of. If she is allowed time to build up speed, you wont ever dream of catching her. In a dogfight/furball, the 262 has ultimate control over the fight. It's best to use her slashing through furballs, tagging an opponent each pass, extending to 4000 yards or so, then turning in and reengaging the furball. This is how we flew her in Aces High, and allow me to speak of some of my experiences there.

 

The presence of a 262 demands vigilance of enemy fighters. If they don't pay attention to it's whereabouts at all times, there's a good chance she may single you out in her list of targets and blast you away before you know it. We would never allow our speed to dip below 400 mph, making gentle turns and pouring on the throttle anytime we were threatened by a high contact or a Typhoon or Tempest. Nearly any plane can give chase to a 262 out of a dive, but the pursuer can't maintain that speed like the 262 can. It's only a matter of time before that 262 starts putting distance between you and him. 262s are immediately high value targets as soon as they reach the fight, if you allow them to slash through furballs picking your friendlies you will find yourself quickly out of planes to fight the enemy. I can't speak enough about the 262 and what a fantastic aircraft she is to fly and handle. This video demonstrates very well how we used to fly the 262 back in Aces High.

 

[nervousenergy]

Well, I look forward to shooting down 262s during take off to prevent just that since it would be rare to have that opportunity at speed. But there is always the chance of a passing shot although with low probabilty of success. You can bet the Allies will be monitoring airfields for the 262 just waiting for one to lift off. If not we will get you when landing just for the historical satisfaction, "Meat On The Table". Never cared for the plane, will never fly one. I just want to kill them. :thumbup:

 

My feeling is you won't be very succesful against the fighters, unless you sneak up on them and have good gunnery skills. If they see you coming and they go evasive you will most likely over fly them.

 

Hopefully, the B17s will have decent gunners and the formations will give you "what for" such that you will be deterred or smoked. At any rate you will mostly have passing shots on the bombers. I wonder how many of those it would take to "make the skies burn" with them. I cant see that happening with one sortie. Whats the flight time in a 262?

 

<S>

 

I've got the four book series on the ME262... need to look through it to see if there's an estimate of how many of them may have been brought down by .50 fire from B17 gunners, but given what I recall it wouldn't have been many, and those would have been your typical golden BBs. The closing speed of a 262 on a B17 gives a .50 gunner a TINY firing window, and they're coming in so fast from so far out that they'd have to be looking right at them to see them. The 262 pilot has no such issue... the B17 is huge, and he's picked it out from way beyond the range his plane is visible.

 

There's very little historical footage of B17s being engaged by 262s, so we mostly just have anecdotes about how it went down, but the surviving 262 pilots (particularly Erich Rudorffer, IIRC) extolled at length how incredibly stable a gun platform it was. The 30mm had all sorts of ballistics issues that made it hard to shoot down planes with it, but the 262 had four of them in the nose with no convergence issues. I'd have to research it again, but I thought I'd read that several 262 pilots were credited with multiple B-17 kills on a single pass through a formation.

 

AI gunners with sniper awareness and reflexes might cause problems, especially since (if they're modeled correctly) a single hit on one of the engines should cause immediate failure 99% of the time. Human gunners should fare very poorly. Good P-51 pilots with a couple thousand feet of height advantage should bag their share just like they did historically.

[JuliMonkey]

How's the development of the me 262 going? Is it still in progress or have you stopped developing?

[Veteran66]

We get only the Me 262 A-1 (Fighter) or the Me 262 A-2 (Jabo) too?

[Solty]

We get only the Me 262 A-1 (Fighter) or the Me 262 A-2 (Jabo) too?

 

Actually was it stated which version we will get?

[Kev2go]

I think it will be interesting to see the level of fidelity never before seen in a ww2 sin especially for a 262. The challenge more or less will be in starting the plane without blowing up. Taxiing takeoff and landings. Something the 262 was known to not be easy at doing. More so the flight characteristics in the high speed subsonic regions. One will not be able to simply firewall the throttles lest they want to flame out a turbine. It'll be a complicated process of tiny throttle movements to keep speed and watching your airspeed to make sure you don't max out the airframe and lose control even in level flight as we can see with the f86 and the MiG15. Further more the mk108 30mm guns will be interesting to employ. Let alone if they allow the attachment of a2a/a2g rockets and free fall bombs as originally intended by Messerschmitt. It's gonna be a helluva fun plane. I look forward to making the skies burn with B17s and unwary mustangs spits bolts and warhawks ( if it ever comes)

 

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what? the F86 handles fantastically even in high speed region or in dives due to an All flying tail ( hydraulically boosted elevators) and boosted hydraulic ailerons as well. I have never spun out of control with the sabre. its a very pilot friendly aircraft.

 

ONly the mig15 really has problems maintaining control or maneuvering in high speed region( following sabres in high speed dives = no no), but even then Its engine and airframe are reliable. Dont ever recall having flame outs in either F86F or mig15 even with fast changes in throttle.

 

Though i agree the me262 will not be easy to fly and not as reliable as post ww2 jet designs. On the positive side it certianly will be a safer aircraft than say the Me163 komet :D

 

anyways with ww2 era me262 it would be equally interesting to see both the Meteor mk3 ( i know its in veos roadmap) and the YP80/P80 shooting star.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Kev2go

[MAD-MM]

Jumo004 was apparently a good Design, the A Version pass the 100 Hour full power test with out trouble and deliver more Power then the Serial one. The main Problem was Germany don't heave the necessary resources four serial Production with high grade Steel. So the Compressor Fan Blades was done out of sheet Metal that could not withstand the Temperature and the high revolutions. Would you build a F-86 Sabre Jet Engine with the same Parts would be also troublesome Engine.

Edited February 11, 2017 by MAD-MM

[Hummingbird]

Yes the design of the 004 was sound, and some clever designing made the best out of the material available. By the end the engine life had improved a lot and the flameouts were almost completely eliminated with the auto throttle regulator.

 

Should be a real treat to fly, and deceptively agile providing you didnt dip below 450 kmh where the jet engines no longer provided as much thrust as a prop.

[3WA]

Then again strafing a pilot on T/O or landing would not be very gentlemanly now would it.

 

No, no it would not. But then again, It's War. :music_whistling:

 

And the #@%$#! A.I. sure doesn't seem to mind doing it at all!! Curse You!, A.I. Allied Forces! :cry_2:

Edited February 12, 2017 by 3WA

[RAZBAM_ELMO]

what? the F86 handles fantastically even in high speed region or in dives due to an All flying tail ( hydraulically boosted elevators) and boosted hydraulic ailerons as well. I have never spun out of control with the sabre. its a very pilot friendly aircraft.

 

ONly the mig15 really has problems maintaining control or maneuvering in high speed region( following sabres in high speed dives = no no), but even then Its engine and airframe are reliable. Dont ever recall having flame outs in either F86F or mig15 even with fast changes in throttle.

 

Though i agree the me262 will not be easy to fly and not as reliable as post ww2 jet designs. On the positive side it certianly will be a safer aircraft than say the Me163 komet :D

 

anyways with ww2 era me262 it would be equally interesting to see both the Meteor mk3 ( i know its in veos roadmap) and the YP80/P80 shooting star.

Not as difficult as the mig but a handful none the less. In the elevators it isn't a pain but trying to roll the airframe at high speeds is what I was referring to. No matter bit will be exciting and exilerating no less.

 

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[JuliMonkey]

The Me 262 had some rudder stability problems when it went really fast. The Me 262 HG series: the Me 262 HG 1 has been built and flown. The Me 262 HG 2 was built and ready to be flown. I remember the airfield where it was located. I think is was Lechfeld? The problem why the HG 2 didnt fly: a pilot had to crash land with another jet and crashed right into the HG 2. The HG 2 was 80% destroyed. The HG 2 also had some stability problems. The V tail wasnt really stable. The Me 262 HG 3 well it was only on paper.

[Kev2go]

Not as difficult as the mig but a handful none the less. In the elevators it isn't a pain but trying to roll the airframe at high speeds is what I was referring to. No matter bit will be exciting and exilerating no less.

 

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To me its not a handfull because i know its not an F16. ;) . These arent supersonic jets, let alone have any computer assisted control or an FBW system. basically in the transonic region you should only expect to go in a straight level or in a dive. and not be making fancy maneuvers. the sabre still handles excellently.

 

 

I have to say as it being my first module I bought outside of FC3 a couple years back ( when there weren't trainers yet), even as a nugget pilot in my first full fidelity module, i did not have any trouble with the Sabre. It was easy to get into, and I consider it to have very nice handling characteristics, id say almost forgiving aircraft, especially given the age of this design. first take off and landings smooth, and on my 3rd flight flight i broke mach 1 in a dive, and pulled up before hitting the ground, and without over stressing the airframe. THis was also the general consensus among the pilots ( even modern Demonstration pilots) who flew the Sabre ( especially such later models with all flying tail)

Edited February 12, 2017 by Kev2go

[Hummingbird]

The Me262 should be a joy to fly, very stabile with light & well balanced controls that only started to become stiff once you neared the never exceed speed, which is also where the aircraft started to generate a down pitch, vibrate and eventually as speed increased become uncontrollable unless trimmed out of the dive.

 

In terms of maneuverability, if modelled correctly, people will be surprised at how nimble & well behaved the aircraft is. Furthermore its landing speed is lower than that of the F-86 Sabre, thus coupled with the tricycle landing gear it should be pretty straight forward to land the thing as well.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Hummingbird

[Badger1-1]

Is the project still alive or on hold?