noob education needed here... what can the SA-342M do?

[Rogue Trooper]

Attached is a simple test mission.

 

10 T-55 tanks, lowest skill level. All vehicles in individual groups, so they don't share information.

 

5 seconds after mission start, a hovering UH-1 spawns 2000m behind the tanks (simulating a pop-up maneuver).

 

1 second after spawn, two tanks are turning their turrets to engage.

2 second after spawn, 4 tanks are turning their turrets to engage.

3 seconds after spawn, all 10 tanks are turning their turrets to engage.

 

 

Under these circumstances, employing the Gazelle or BO-105 in their original mission will be next to impossible.

 

 

 

 

That hits the nail on the head for DCS and this killed flying the Ka-50 for me.

 

May I take a tally of gazelles for this mission? or is it stuck in the old DCS way?

If so such a mission needs to wait until the triumphant release of the Gazzelle... I have saved the mission for such a time.:D

 

Mind..... I may, in the mean time, completely bleed the mission with the KA-50 :D.

The mission is in NTTR or is it not?:huh: Us chopper boys adapt and move on... It is NTTR is it not?

Edited January 19, 2016 by Rogue Trooper

[Rogue Trooper]

The point of such a fabulous aircraft like the gazelle or Bo-105 is not whether these airframes are as effective as an apache or KA-50, they simply are not.

The point of these airframes is to learn how to hunt. The hunt requires you to only expose yourself at the point of kill or when the advantage is in your favour.

These airframes simply teach you how to fly attack choppers when the odds are even. An analogy would be the difference between hunting with a bow and arrow or Hunting with a .300 win mag rifle. Both can achieve the same result, but only one would improve improve your stalking skills.

Indeed the longer the range the lower the skill. The closer the range the better the Warcraft.

 

The Gazelle and the BO-105 require hard hard work to achieve their goal and they need multi pit to achieve this successfully. Do we want something from ED… sheeeeat yes.

We need multi pit and in pit coms as well as in pit multiplayer radios…

 

Until then, I cannot wait to have the Gazelle at full throttle climbing low and through the narrow mountain passes, due west of Las Vegas. I will be looking straight up through my rotors at the mountains above me….. bliss is NTTR.

Bliss will be my Gazelle.

[Hook47]

The Gazelle fits nicely between the UH 1 and KA 50 in attack capability. Better than the Huey, but not quite the beast that the Akula is when it comes to tank hunting. I can't wait to fly coop op with KA 50s and Gazelles

[Rogue Trooper]

KA-50 and gazelles would be great and hopefully, one day, we will use hinds and Gazelles just like the Iraqis did during the Iran-Iraq War.

[Nerdwing]

What kind of flight-assistance/autopilot does the Gazelle field? Does it have a heading-hold function etc, or is it more "seat of your pants" flying like the UH-1H?

[Pat01]

Hi

 

Basically the autopilot behaves like a stability augmentation system (SAS) and also features auto-hover, speed hold, altitude hold modes, plus the ability to slave the helicopter movements to the camera when targeting.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Pat01

[Nerdwing]

Hi

 

Basically the autopilot behaves like a stability augmentation system (SAS) and also features auto-hover, speed hold, altitude hold modes, plus the ability to slave the helicopter movements to the camera when targeting.

 

Thats perfect then :) Its fascinating to see how pilot assistance and autopilot evolved from the Huey onward. The Gazelle sounds like it'll be very easy to fly!

[hannibal]

hello everyone.

 

after seeing all the posts, it seems like the Gazelle will be the AT (anti-tank) guy, and the Ka-50 will be the sniper... if you want one were to make a comparison to the battlefield franchise..lol

 

i will be super excited to hear about any multi-seat news on this helicopter!!! the thought that the gazelle mod can allow me to have some kind of trainer capability is exciting with having someone in multiplayer sit next to me in the helo..

[Hook47]

hello everyone.

 

after seeing all the posts, it seems like the Gazelle will be the AT (anti-tank) guy, and the Ka-50 will be the sniper... if you want one were to make a comparison to the battlefield franchise..lol

 

i will be super excited to hear about any multi-seat news on this helicopter!!! the thought that the gazelle mod can allow me to have some kind of trainer capability is exciting with having someone in multiplayer sit next to me in the helo..

 

Gazelle as an anti tank bird my be overreaching a bit. It will be suited as a light attack aircraft against light armor and scout vehicles, and of course soft targets for sure. Anti tank remains firmly the territory of the KA-50 I think

[dimitriov]

About the use of the Gazelle, after having flown it a bit, here is my opinion in DCS :

 

- Multi-player is its perfect ground.

- Cooperation with kamov-50 too.

 

An example of cooperation.

 

You are 3 gazelles, and 1 kamov-50.

 

Your goal is to destroy a Sa-15 Tor battery, protected by several Sa-13 Strela-10, and Shilkas.

 

The Gazelle won't be able to treat the threat, and the kamov-50 won't be able to find the Tors unless it fires.

 

The Gazelle features the DRAX 33 RWR.

 

- Find a good spot position.

- Get the Tor on the RWR.

- If possible, make a triangulation.

- Use your Viviane Camera to search in the RWR spike region.

- Find the Tor (IR vision is a real plus).

- Grab the distance via your telemeter.

 

Now, you have, thanks to your camera : a bearing, and a distance to the Tor.

 

Just get on your Nadir Navigation system, grab your own coordinates (happily, Degree/Minute/Decimals, like in the Kamov-50 Pvi-800).

 

Send your coordinates to the Kamov-50. He creates a target point. Then you give to him the bearing from your position to the target, and the distance. The Kamov-50 displays the target point on his Abris, and uses the ERBL function to have the precise position of the target.

 

Repeat this for each Tor. And you're able to destroy a full battery of Tor in less than 5 minutes with enough training.

 

So IMO, the Gazelle is more a very efficient recon helicopter (RWR, and better, reaaaaaaally better camera than the kamov-50) than an attacker. Except if you're part of a big squad which is able to deploy 10 Gazelles, one Kamov-50 will be more efficient than you for AT destruction.So the goal is to find a way of completing both modules, and not to try to make them concurrents. If you're an adept of SEAD in helicopter, then it's going to be very useful, if you like PVP flights with enemy fighters in the area, then it's made for you. If you're an adept of destroying 40 vehicles in a game just with one payload, then no, sure, that's not the philosophy. Stealth, and efficient, not ramming and burn. Ambush, no frontal attack, one 14.5 mm shell will kill your crew ;)

 

And contrarily yo what I read, I think that with 4 HOT missiles, your main targets are heavy tanks, and not Btr-80 or other light vehicles. For three reasons :

 

- First : A T-80 is harder to destroy by friendly ground units than a Btr, while the HOT3 will one shot him.

- Second : T-80 A/A capabilities are very poor, compared to a Btr or worse, Bmp-2 ones. One 30 mm shell in a kamov-50 won't destroy the aircraft... On the Gazelle...

- Third : 4 missiles, it's not too much, but on many missions, you won't be able to carry more than 2 because of fuel and weight limitations. The goal of the Gazelle is to destroy defined targets with 100% hit, and if possible by night for the Viviane version.

 

Nicolas

Edited April 3, 2016 by dimitriov

[microvax]

About the use of the Gazelle, after having flown it a bit, here is my opinion in DCS :

 

- Multi-player is its perfect ground.

- Cooperation with kamov-50 too.

 

An example of cooperation.

 

You are 3 gazelles, and 1 kamov-50.

 

Your goal is to destroy a Sa-15 Tor battery, protected by several Sa-13 Strela-10, and Shilkas.

 

The Gazelle won't be able to treat the threat, and the kamov-50 won't be able to find the Tors unless it fires.

 

The Gazelle features the DRAX 33 RWR.

 

- Find a good spot position.

- Get the Tor on the RWR.

- If possible, make a triangulation.

- Use your Viviane Camera to search in the RWR spike region.

- Find the Tor (IR vision is a real plus).

- Grab the distance via your telemeter.

 

Now, you have, thanks to your camera : a bearing, and a distance to the Tor.

 

Just get on your Nadir Navigation system, grab your own coordinates (happily, Degree/Minute/Decimals, like in the Kamov-50 Pvi-800).

 

Send your coordinates to the Kamov-50. He creates a target point. Then you give to him the bearing from your position to the target, and the distance. The Kamov-50 displays the target point on his Abris, and uses the ERBL function to have the precise position of the target.

 

Repeat this for each Tor. And you're able to destroy a full battery of Tor in less than 5 minutes with enough training.

 

So IMO, the Gazelle is more a very efficient recon helicopter (RWR, and better, reaaaaaaally better camera than the kamov-50) than an attacker. Except if you're part of a big squad which is able to deploy 10 Gazelles, one Kamov-50 will be more efficient than you for AT destruction.So the goal is to find a way of completing both modules, and not to try to make them concurrents. If you're an adept of SEAD in helicopter, then it's going to be very useful, if you like PVP flights with enemy fighters in the area, then it's made for you. If you're an adept of destroying 40 vehicles in a game just with one payload, then no, sure, that's not the philosophy. Stealth, and efficient, not ramming and burn. Ambush, no frontal attack, one 14.5 mm shell will kill your crew ;)

 

And contrarily yo what I read, I think that with 4 HOT missiles, your main targets are heavy tanks, and not Btr-80 or other light vehicles. For three reasons :

 

- First : A T-80 is harder to destroy by friendly ground units than a Btr, while the HOT3 will one shot him.

- Second : T-80 A/A capabilities are very poor, compared to a Btr or worse, Bmp-2 ones. One 30 mm shell in a kamov-50 won't destroy the aircraft... On the Gazelle...

- Third : 4 missiles, it's not too much, but on many missions, you won't be able to carry more than 2 because of fuel and weight limitations. The goal of the Gazelle is to destroy defined targets with 100% hit, and if possible by night for the Viviane version.

 

Nicolas

 

That sounds glorious, from my experience in the KA50 thats what I expected the Gazelle to be exceptional at. Have a RWR, IR/in general better Camera and excellent cockpit visibility. Provide Coordinates exactly like you explained it and boom KA50 Nails Stuff from 10K+ away.

 

Want to do that right naow. Gib already !!!! :D :pilotfly::joystick:

[borchi_2b]

@dimitriov

 

that is a superb description. Thanks

[King_Hrothgar]

Thanks for your thoughts dimitriov. I've been thinking that the Gazelle's main usage in MP will be as a scout for Ka-50's and what you wrote seems to confirm that. On 104th for instance, I think it will work best as a commander for a flight of 4+ Ka-50's, spotting and assigning targets thanks to it's seemingly better sensors. It should also be handy in night missions where it can give a precise range/bearing to a target, thus making it far easier for the Ka-50's to locate stuff.

 

My main concern about the Gazelle offensively is the missile range. The T-72 and better fire missiles back at choppers at about 5km. The Vikhr shoots 7km+, so it's a non issue for the Ka-50 but it's my understanding the HOT3 can only reach a meager 3.5km. I noticed in the video some shots out to 4km, but even that is well inside the range of the typical T-90 seen in MP. Those missiles are easy to defeat with sideslipping, but that seems problematic for a wire guided missile. Additionally, does the targeting system have autotracking ability or do you have to manually keep it on target? If the latter, that's an additional problem when trying to evade.

[dimitriov]

To answer your question :

 

1) The Viviane hasn't an auto-tracking, it will "lock on" the ground below the target, so if your target doesn't move (currently 99% of the 104th targets), you will be able to keep it centered whatever could be your evolutions (except over the camera gimbal limits). It's a gyro-stabilized camera.

 

2) In order to fire the HOT3, you need a +-3° azimut on the target. (4300 m range)

 

3) ATGM from tanks won't be shot if the target flyies over 100 km/h, so it's a "false" problem. AI shoots ATGM at low speed targets. It's too a problem for the Kamov-50 as long as you don't always have the possibility to keep enough distance between you and him. And havinh 2k hours on the Kamov, I can confirm you that Vikhr doesn't like lateral at all too (>50 km/h), and that, in mountains for example, ATGM too are a real problem for him. And anyway, the Gazelle doesn't perform lateral as well as the Kamov, (his speciality)

 

The Gazelle is perfectly able to destroy threats going from the Btr to the Strela-10, you only need skill. You could even destroy Heavy Radar SAM with it if you're able to fly constantly below 10m/ground. This is why, for example, it is not suggested to try the campaign if you're a complete rookie, you will get killed very fast. But it's precisly what I personnally like with it.

 

Kamov-50 forgives mistakes. Tonight, was on the 104th, I got hit by Btr, and didn't loose anything (which is rare I admit). With the Gazelle, it's far more complicated, but far from being impossible. Its best playground is at night. There, you have a far more efficient helicopter than the Kamov-50.

 

I'd say that the main point of the Gazelle flight, compared to the Kamov-50, is that you don't have any chance of survival if you don't prepare your flight. With it, you will learn how to use ground cover, how to find good spot positions, where to place yourself... While in Kamov-50, you theoritically can remain in AH during the whole flight and act as a "Death space station". That's not the case of all simmers, but many play like this (And when I'm on PVP servers, I find them and kill them quite easily with my 2A42 :p )

 

This is what I like with it, you learn about survival, and to say "No" when a target is too dangerous, instead of unrealistically trying to destroy it. And most of all, you will have to build a real teamplay, and that's IMO the first time in DCS history that another aircraft can be useful when playing with the Kamov.

 

I mean : A Mi-8 won't be useful for a Kamov, same for a Huey, same for a Mig-21, a Su-##, for an A-10 (Same job, slower rate of fire). The Gazelle can fill many gaps of the Kamov, and more is coming with the Mistral version.

 

Nicolas

Edited April 3, 2016 by dimitriov

[microvax]

I'd say that the main point of the Gazelle flight, compared to the Kamov-50, is that you don't have any chance of survival if you don't prepare your flight. With it, you will learn how to use ground cover, how to find good spot positions, where to place yourself... While in Kamov-50, you theoritically can remain in AH during the whole flight and act as a "Death space station". That's not the case of all simmers, but many play like this (And when I'm on PVP servers, I find them and kill them quite easily with my 2A42 :p )

 

This is what I like with it, you learn about survival, and to say "No" when a target is too dangerous, instead of unrealistically trying to destroy it. And most of all, you will have to build a real teamplay, and that's IMO the first time in DCS history that another aircraft can be useful when playing with the Kamov.

 

I mean : A Mi-8 won't be useful for a Kamov, same for a Huey, same for a Mig-21, a Su-##, for an A-10 (Same job, slower rate of fire). The Gazelle can fill many gaps of the Kamov, and more is coming with the Mistral version.

 

Nicolas

 

thats sounds really great, I guess Caucasus is a little bit annoying with the Trees...

Its really beyond my understanding, why Warblunder has trees you can collide with, and DCS doesnt.

 

The Kamov is so great as SEAD in weapons capability as it can outrange most things or simply fly low enough to get it anyway. The only thing it really lacks for that is the reconnaissance capability/RWR imho. Really looking forward to that Gazelle/Kamov teamwork. Up for it at any time ! :D

The gazelle with mistrals plus the Kamov with Vikhrs would be a real dream team. :pilotfly:

 

God dammit stahp teasing already ! :D :cry::lol:

[dimitriov]

For the trees in Caucasus, it's quite simple to understand.

 

When the Caucasus was firstly designed, there only were planes, so the collision with trees wasn't so important. So, in order to model trees without needing too much resources, instead of 1 tree = 1 object, you have 1 forest = 1 object.

 

So, the tree doesn't technically exist in DCS as a tree. And it's only a whole transparent texture. The only way to give real trees to the Caucasus is to replace them all by a new type of unit. And seeing the high amount of them, it's quite possible that your computer may not be able to follow.

[microvax]

Yee, I know the historical reason for the state of trees in caucasus.

 

If its still a performance issue for todays machines, Imho a solid single object forest would be better then Tunguskas firing missles at you through 7km of trees. ;D

 

I guess we are going to see if its performance wise possible in Normandy, tons of bushes and trees on an map which is made for DCS 1.5.X or possibly 2.5.x . :)

 

http://tanguay.info/learntracker/customImages/itemTypes/vocab_bocage.jpg

A dream for popup attacks.

[bart]

This is a fantastic thread fella's. Lots of good info and tactics discussion here.

 

Ive had the KA-50 for a while now but never spent a lot of time on it until recently and loving every minute of the learning process. All these tactics I find fascinating, the reason I love DCS so much.

 

Day one purchase here for the Gazelle when it finally arrives, but this thread has opened up a whole new perspective for me on how I'm going to use it, thank you all for your inspiration.

 

What's the best server to go on to get involved with this sort of gameplay? I'm guessing the 104th?

[MAD-MM]

Noob Question, don't be aware the Gazelle is equiped with RWR, and have such drastic change to the civil variants.

Is there a list with common changes for military equipment, doe's the Gazelle for example have also a LWR?

[dimitriov]

The 104th is IMO quite good in teamplay. There too is the TAW.net server, which is quite similar to the 104th, but with external views (I prefer it, not because I use them, but because I can take screenshots)

 

Nicolas

[Johnny Dioxin]

So how about a (MP?) campaign with the Gazelle and Ka-50, then Nicolas?

[dimitriov]

Ehehehe vade retro :megalol:

[Johnny Dioxin]

Who me? :P

[dimitriov]

Yes you ! :D

[scharrk]

Im not sure how usefull this bird will be in combination with other modules. With AI ground units, which can hit you with 200% accuracy im sure it will be a short game.

For missions special made for the Gazelle, im sure it's doing well and it is cool, but i don't think so in combination with other modules.