Zakatak Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 So from what I've heard and seen, the current start up sequence is lacking the INS alignment procedure. I've also heard it quoted several times that this alignment can take up to 10 minutes. If this is true, and it has to be done on the ground, could you include a "quick align" option in the Special options menu for the Mirage 2000 which could reduce the time to, say, 1 minute? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmbaviator Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I can say that for modern commercial airplane it can take 6-7 min and older ones up to 10 min. It also depends on your location on earth Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantiga Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) IIRC it takes 8 minutes in FSX. but you can fly without INS... edit: For devs. If you add that, please make such "Unrealistic option" can be restricted by mission settings. It might affect mission designs and balances... Edited December 2, 2015 by Cantiga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathbane Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Im all for INS alignment being fully simulated as far as a cold start is concerned. Reason being this makes the quick start up time of something for example like the MIG-21 actually really useful, and simulates how quickly such aircraft can actually get off runway in the real world. The Black Shark has INU alignment time of three minutes, and honestly that isnt too long when running a mission from a cold start. As said above this can drastically alter mission design and potentially multiplayer balance if i think about it (havnt played enough of it myself, so thats a purely logical extension of the above arguement) So yes if included, definitely a selectable option that has no effect outside of single play. V.O.D.K.A. Squadron: Northern Wolves - Red ones go faster! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sedenion Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 The French "air police" mission requier that the mirage 2000 must be able to take off in less than 10 min "la mission des pilotes dijonnais et de leurs mécaniciens consiste à faire décoller en moins de 7 minutes de jour, en moins de 15 minutes la nuit" ___ "the mission of Dijon pilotes and their mechanicians is to take off in less than 7 minutes during the day, in less than 15 minutes at night" src (in french): http://www.bienpublic.com/cote-d-or/2011/03/15/les-mirage-ont-repris-l-alerte-depuis-les-pistes-de-longvic Maybe that is a clue about the INS setup ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jojo Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Normal alignment procedure is 8mn. Quick alignment procedure (memorized heading = the plane didn't move since shut down) is 4mn. Both procedure are available in FSX, so I bet we'll have them in DCS eventually. Mirage fanatic ! I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2. Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTJS17_Fire Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Normal alignment procedure is 8mn. Quick alignment procedure (memorized heading = the plane didn't move since shut down) is 4mn. Both procedure are available in FSX, so I bet we'll have them in DCS eventually. This would be great, I hope so. :) Hardware: Intel i5 4670K | Zalman NPS9900MAX | GeIL 16GB @1333MHz | Asrock Z97 Pro4 | Sapphire Radeon R9 380X Nitro | Samsung SSDs 840 series 120GB & 250 GB | Samsung HD204UI 2TB | be quiet! Pure Power 530W | Aerocool RS-9 Devil Red | Samsung SyncMaster SA350 24" + ASUS VE198S 19" | Saitek X52 | TrackIR 5 | Thrustmaster MFD Cougar | Speedlink Darksky LED | Razor Diamondback | Razor X-Mat Control | SoundBlaster Tactic 3D Rage ### Software: Windows 10 Pro 64Bit [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeus67 Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Full alignment takes 8 minutes. "Memory" alignment, takes 4. INS Alignment is only required for cold start in the ramp. For hot starts, either in the runway or in the air, the INS will be already aligned at mission start. "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." "The three most dangerous things in the world are a programmer with a soldering iron, a hardware type with a program patch and a user with an idea." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luzifer Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Im all for INS alignment being fully simulated as far as a cold start is concerned. Reason being this makes the quick start up time of something for example like the MIG-21 actually really useful, and simulates how quickly such aircraft can actually get off runway in the real world. The Black Shark has INU alignment time of three minutes, and honestly that isnt too long when running a mission from a cold start. I think I read around here that the real one needs 30 minutes alignment. It was reduced in-game. And if you want to simulate "how quickly such aircraft can actually get off runway in the real world" you have to consider that they don't have to wait for INS. If they're on alert, they will stay powered and basically only need to start the engine. If they're not, they'll probably be prepped by ground crew before the pilot arrives and is strapped in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsair Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I think I read around here that the real one needs 30 minutes alignment. It was reduced in-game. edit : you were talking about the Ka-50, nevermind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranbi2Delta Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 (edited) This would be an nice little option to have, akin to those available on some realistic airliner add-ons available for FSX and P3D. Also like cmbaviator said, the alignment of any INS depends on your lattitude (among other factors). I don't imagine it would be any different for the M2000. The alignment essentially figures out the accelerations that the aircraft is undergoing (due to the Earth's rotation), in order to figure out its geographic location, provided you have given it a reference position. There's quite a lot of complex mathematics behind it which you can read up on, but in general, the alignment will take longer the further away from the equator you are. It would be interesting to test whether this is modelled in DCS by comparing the alignment times in the Caucusus region to, say, the Strait of Hormuz (when it's released :smilewink:). Edited December 3, 2015 by Ranbi2Delta "What's that goat doing up here in the clouds?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomCatMucDe Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 That's an interesting scientific fact! I learned something from you today! Indeed it would be interesting to test it in DCS. But you could do that with the A10C already right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiteladder Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Slightly off topic, but does anyone know if you will be able to enter a waypoint manually while in flight into the INS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jojo Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 It has already been said, not on beta release but eventually yes... Mirage fanatic ! I7-7700K/ MSI RTX3080/ RAM 64 Go/ SSD / TM Hornet stick-Virpil WarBRD + Virpil CM3 Throttle + MFG Crosswind + Reverb G2. Flickr gallery: https://www.flickr.com/gp/71068385@N02/728Hbi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZnarF Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 And 3 years later... .... actually if I well understand, we can align the INS of 3 manners: - full ALN / full time - "quick" ALN with a stopped ALN (standard alignment, but without waiting the end of all 4 phases, at the expense of some precision) - ALCM Does ALCM actually works in a cold start? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myHelljumper Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 And 3 years later... .... actually if I well understand, we can align the INS of 3 manners: - full ALN / full time - "quick" ALN with a stopped ALN (standard alignment, but without waiting the end of all 4 phases, at the expense of some precision) - ALCM Does ALCM actually works in a cold start? No, ALCM will work on an already aligned INS, like after rearm of after a QRA standby period. Helljumper - M2000C Guru Helljumper's Youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK3rTjezLUxPbWHvJJ3W2fA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZnarF Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Ok! And do you know the degree of precision we could achieve with each of the 4 alignment phases of the INS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myHelljumper Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Yes, I think it's in the manual. It's very simple: -class 4 -> 4nm/h -class 3 -> 3nm/h -class 2 -> 2nm/h -class 1 -> 1nm/h IRRC it's as simple as that. Helljumper - M2000C Guru Helljumper's Youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK3rTjezLUxPbWHvJJ3W2fA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZnarF Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Thank you! By X nm/h, you mean an imprecision of X between the real coordinates and the coordinates that the INS displays? (That should finally not be a problem for prepared waypoints, because they are still exact because relative of our start position, but only problematic for absolute coordinates entered during flight) OR, you mean by X nm/h a drift per hour of X nm? (Wich would be curious to differ, as I thought the ALN phase goal was to calibrate the lat./long. coordinates?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrayen Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Drift. Not curious at all, by the way ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZnarF Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Ok!! (I mean "curious" because I tought the drift of such system should be a constante, not a variable depending of how many time we took to calibrate it!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiGon Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Ok!! (I mean "curious" because I tought the drift of such system should be a constante, not a variable depending of how many time we took to calibrate it!!) The calibration process calibrates the gyroscopes to get aligned with the rotation of the earth, so that they show no movement when the plane stands still on the ground even though the ground itself (the earth) moves (rotates in space). So, a shorter and less precise alignment still shows greater movement on the ground than a longer and more precise alignment. Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xordus Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 I don't mind that they wanted to shorten this process, but ELIMINATE IT? Instead of just removing a large portion of the realism in starting a Mirage, they just added a checkbox that says "DO MAGIC START UP". Why not simply shorten it to 3-4 minutes, thereby largely keeping the startup sequence intact? The only reason you'd need to skip INS alignment is if you don't care about realism and prefer "Air-Quake" which everyone seems to agree is an unfortunate part of DCS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myHelljumper Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 I don't mind that they wanted to shorten this process, but ELIMINATE IT? Instead of just removing a large portion of the realism in starting a Mirage, they just added a checkbox that says "DO MAGIC START UP". Why not simply shorten it to 3-4 minutes, thereby largely keeping the startup sequence intact? The only reason you'd need to skip INS alignment is if you don't care about realism and prefer "Air-Quake" which everyone seems to agree is an unfortunate part of DCS. You already can shorten it to 4 minutes, and that's realistic. Helljumper - M2000C Guru Helljumper's Youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK3rTjezLUxPbWHvJJ3W2fA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banzaiib Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 I don't mind that they wanted to shorten this process, but ELIMINATE IT? Instead of just removing a large portion of the realism in starting a Mirage, they just added a checkbox that says "DO MAGIC START UP". Why not simply shorten it to 3-4 minutes, thereby largely keeping the startup sequence intact? The only reason you'd need to skip INS alignment is if you don't care about realism and prefer "Air-Quake" which everyone seems to agree is an unfortunate part of DCS. I get your sentiment, but staring at a clock for 10 minutes is not my idea of fun. It's not all about "air quake". Some of us want to enjoy different parts of the simulation more than others. Following your logic, they should get rid of air-starts too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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