Su27 Close Air Combat - Any Help?

[StormTalon627]

Hello!

 

So I have been playing with the Su27 for a while now and feel very comfortable with BVR (still haven't mastered the elevation settings on the radar though) but I am really struggling with Close Air Combat, especially where I don't have the enemy's info on my HUD anymore.

 

Specifically, I cannot for the life of me find the enemy plane after we finish jousting, and I end up spinning around and around trying to find him. Is there some sensor/radar setting I should be using? Right now I am just scanning the sky after entering the vertical aiming mode (the setting on the 3 button) and spamming ENTER hoping to get a lock. I know this isn't the way it should be done, but outside of seeing the enemy plane with my eyes I don't really know what else there is.

 

I use the HDD to give me an idea of where the enemy is, but we are turning so fast around each other it is pretty tough to watch that, the sky, and everything else. It is also very limited if you don't have AWACS.

 

Any help/tips?

 

THanks! :)

[hesterj]

I'm no expert, but I believe that in the vertical scan mode (3) you can just hold down the ENTER button and it will autolock if it finds something, so no need to spam enter. If I'm merged, I will either try to find with with infrared scan (passive, so you can shoot them with a 73 and they don't know you found them yet!), or the "HI" mode on the radar. I have heard conflicting information on which mode is best for all-aspect discovery at very close range though, so maybe "HI" is not the best but it's what I go to when in a panic.

 

Barring these two methods, try to turn so that you can always keep an eye on where they're at! Try use the "S" key to do a crazy turn after the merge get eyes on the enemy. If you see them you can try to use the Helmet mounted sight with (5), but maybe only the mig-29 can do that. With the HMS you can fire an R-73 at some pretty crazy angles. Now if you can't get a lock on them, you can always try to use the "tone mode" (6), where you point your plane where they're at, you get a beeeeep, and then you fire a heater.

 

I wouldn't use the HDD too much at all other than situational awareness for other incoming planes- most reliable option is trying to keep an eye on the enemy. Rather than looking at the computer you should be looking around the plane, looking for the bandit.

 

Edit: I wouldn't use (6) unless the avionics have been damaged because you were hit. If you are hit and computer is down you can press (7) and the function will be the same although you will have only very basic HUD, point middle at bad guy, should hear a beep and you are good to go. This is one of the good things, often when you are given a glancing blow by Amraam you will still be flying and if you have visual, the (7) mode combined with the "S" key could still keep you deadly if you can find them visually.

 

Can anyone confirm what happens to fly-by-wire when plane is damaged? If the computers are down, does pressing "S" have any effect? I/e if HUD and computer, radar, rwr, are down I would assume the fly by wire is not working and is same as in "S" mode?

Edited December 6, 2015 by hesterj

[Frostie]

When you merge you should be getting visual and using Helmet mode, without visual you're toast.

 

At BVR you need to keep a track on the bandits movement throughout the engagement such as his bearing, altitude and aspect, from this you can build a picture of what he will be doing if you lose him, this helps you quickly put your sensors back on him or if the range is close, acquire him visually.

BVR is not just a case of firing on him until he dies it is so much more which includes building and keeping SA whilst destroying his.

 

The key to entering and winning a merge is keeping visual. There is an age old adage that corresponds to losing sight and relates to losing the fight.

[HelloCam3]

Maintaining visual during a merge is key, but you should know how to maneuver your aircraft too. Understand the corner speed and turn rate of the Su-27. There is a good video from flankertraining.com that talks about this. It's old and the numbers might be outdated, but I still find the lesson helpful and revisit it from time to time. I tend to use the vertical scan mode when in close range as I find that has the best results (for me anyway).

 

Link to the video:

[ame]

[/ame]
Edited December 7, 2015 by HelloCam3

[Exorcet]

Have to ask if this is AI or human adversaries? Slightly different as the variance in skill among players is larger and the AI will never lose track of you.

[Stuge]

Keep visual always if you can.

 

If you lose visual, the vertical scan is your best bet. Make sure it's in thermal only mode (the radar mode is off) as this way it locks fastest and most reliably. No need to spam the lock button, as someone said, just keep it pressed throughout the scanning. Program it to an easy button on joystick instead of using the enter key.

 

While vertical scanning, keep rolling your plane actively, as this "swings" your vertical scanning cone all over the place, guaranteeing that anything in your front sector within 60 degrees off nose will get locked up.

 

Don't forget to keep your ears open. You never know if you could hear your bandit passing beside you before seeing him or locking him up.

[blkspade]

Have to ask if this is AI or human adversaries? Slightly different as the variance in skill among players is larger and the AI will never lose track of you.

 

That's actually not quite true any more. The AI stopped being all knowing some time ago, where they rely on LOS and sensor input. If can you break LOS with the cockpit, and not show up on radar/RWR they will actually lose you. It becomes way more apparent WWII AI since there are no sensors, but I have done it vs modern jet AI as well.

[Exorcet]

That's actually not quite true any more. The AI stopped being all knowing some time ago, where they rely on LOS and sensor input. If can you break LOS with the cockpit, and not show up on radar/RWR they will actually lose you. It becomes way more apparent WWII AI since there are no sensors, but I have done it vs modern jet AI as well.

 

I'll have to test this out. I haven't done it in combat, but I have seen the AI do strange things like fail to notice me fly by their cockpit. Sometimes with the MiG-15 I break and then re engage. It always knows when I'm coming. Maybe I wasn't being as careful as I thought.

[grunf]

I just did a quick test, and it seems to be true that the AI needs line of sight in order to detect.

 

I was flying very close behind MiG-21 (poor rear visibility) and he failed to see me until we were side by side. We almost collided when he spotted me and banked hard :D.

 

On the other hand, F-15 spotted me while I was behind, but I sneaked up on him from below, where he could not see me.

[StormTalon627]

I'm no expert, but I believe that in the vertical scan mode (3) you can just hold down the ENTER button and it will autolock if it finds something, so no need to spam enter. If I'm merged, I will either try to find with with infrared scan (passive, so you can shoot them with a 73 and they don't know you found them yet!), or the "HI" mode on the radar. I have heard conflicting information on which mode is best for all-aspect discovery at very close range though, so maybe "HI" is not the best but it's what I go to when in a panic.

 

Barring these two methods, try to turn so that you can always keep an eye on where they're at! Try use the "S" key to do a crazy turn after the merge get eyes on the enemy. If you see them you can try to use the Helmet mounted sight with (5), but maybe only the mig-29 can do that. With the HMS you can fire an R-73 at some pretty crazy angles. Now if you can't get a lock on them, you can always try to use the "tone mode" (6), where you point your plane where they're at, you get a beeeeep, and then you fire a heater.

 

I wouldn't use the HDD too much at all other than situational awareness for other incoming planes- most reliable option is trying to keep an eye on the enemy. Rather than looking at the computer you should be looking around the plane, looking for the bandit.

 

Edit: I wouldn't use (6) unless the avionics have been damaged because you were hit. If you are hit and computer is down you can press (7) and the function will be the same although you will have only very basic HUD, point middle at bad guy, should hear a beep and you are good to go. This is one of the good things, often when you are given a glancing blow by Amraam you will still be flying and if you have visual, the (7) mode combined with the "S" key could still keep you deadly if you can find them visually.

 

Can anyone confirm what happens to fly-by-wire when plane is damaged? If the computers are down, does pressing "S" have any effect? I/e if HUD and computer, radar, rwr, are down I would assume the fly by wire is not working and is same as in "S" mode?

 

Very good points, thank you! And I tested out the vertical scan mode and yes if you hold ENTER it locks automatically - something very good to know!

[StormTalon627]

Maintaining visual during a merge is key, but you should know how to maneuver your aircraft too. Understand the corner speed and turn rate of the Su-27. There is a good video from flankertraining.com that talks about this. It's old and the numbers might be outdated, but I still find the lesson helpful and revisit it from time to time. I tend to use the vertical scan mode when in close range as I find that has the best results (for me anyway).

 

Link to the video:

 

Neat video, that is a pretty handy source to have!

[blkspade]

I just did a quick test, and it seems to be true that the AI needs line of sight in order to detect.

 

I was flying very close behind MiG-21 (poor rear visibility) and he failed to see me until we were side by side. We almost collided when he spotted me and banked hard :D.

 

On the other hand, F-15 spotted me while I was behind, but I sneaked up on him from below, where he could not see me.

 

These things effect the AI at BVR as well. They used to know you launched an active missile TWS and react prior to pitbull. They used to see you through ECM. This not only allowed them to launch at Rmax before burn though, but they would climb with you to negate an attempted altitude advantage. The AI behaves predictably enough to test engagement parameters of both your weapons and the enemies. I got in the practice of doing this after every patch (pretty much since the release of FC3 or late FC2), so when they started to behave differently I noticed. All of these AI cheats have been fixed. I think the only things left is that they still use SFM, and possibly still having 0 spool time between throttle settings.

[grunf]

These things effect the AI at BVR as well. They used to know you launched an active missile TWS and react prior to pitbull. They used to see you through ECM. This not only allowed them to launch at Rmax before burn though, but they would climb with you to negate an attempted altitude advantage. The AI behaves predictably enough to test engagement parameters of both your weapons and the enemies. I got in the practice of doing this after every patch (pretty much since the release of FC3 or late FC2), so when they started to behave differently I noticed. All of these AI cheats have been fixed. I think the only things left is that they still use SFM, and possibly still having 0 spool time between throttle settings.

That's good to know, thanks. AI cheating with detection would be a huge immersion killer for me.