DCS: AJS-37 Viggen Discussion

[mattebubben]

Id say a possible map should probably be placed with gotland on the western part of the map (maby a strip of mainland sweden)

 

and then stretch East towards Latvia.

 

The soviets had multiple Airbases at or close to the coast of Latvia.

 

So Having Gotland and a strip of the latvian coast would be one way to get a good smallish map.

 

And such a map should also not be to hard to make since alot of it would just be ocean.

 

Another Alternative would be making a map covering kaliningrad up and around gotland a part of southern sweden (around blekinge) and then to northern poland (around Gdynia) (and then back to kaliningrad)

 

That would make for a larger map with more coastline and more cool stuff etc (while still having alot of ocean thus making it easier to make)

Edited February 11, 2016 by mattebubben

[T0x1s]

If we would get a new map with a bit of swedens coast etc, it would be fun with some "fantasy" missions with tomcats escorting viggens from a carrier against asoviet invasion

[Krieg]

The bases for the E1 attack wing was placed in western sweden for the added protection. Since the existence of the E1 prohibited attacks over the sea, and the shorter legs were worth it.

 

Ofscourse forward basing is far from impossible, just take your asm-missiles with you in travel mode and let the c-130 bring the reloads.

 

For the map I hope for swedish east coast since basing on Gotland feels fairly limited to peace time interceptions for 'the fish' and otherwise better as the battleground rather than the bases. Costs and other factors however might make it unfeasible.

[Brisse]

I'm not sure what the size limits are on the terrains but I was hoping for east coast, including Karlskrona (MarinB), Ronneby/Kallinge (F17), possibly F12 at Kalmar even though it was decommissioned 1980, and of course Öland and Gotland. Would be amazing if they could somehow put Kaliningrad and some of the South/East Baltic coastal area in there. I think that would still be slightly smaller than the Caucasus map, so maybe it's optimistic from my side, but I don't think it's impossible. A lot of it is open sea which takes less work to make.

[mattebubben]

The bases for the E1 attack wing was placed in western sweden for the added protection. Since the existence of the E1 prohibited attacks over the sea, and the shorter legs were worth it.

 

Ofscourse forward basing is far from impossible, just take your asm-missiles with you in travel mode and let the c-130 bring the reloads.

 

For the map I hope for swedish east coast since basing on Gotland feels fairly limited to peace time interceptions for 'the fish' and otherwise better as the battleground rather than the bases. Costs and other factors however might make it unfeasible.

 

The problem with having a Map that goes all the way to F6 or F7 is it would either not reach the "enemy coastline" (Kaliningrad Latvia Lithuania Poland etc)

 

or it would have to be very big.

 

(about same size as the georgia map and i dont know how ready they are to make such a full sized map)

 

While if you made it smaller (by either focusing from Gotland and over into latvia or went Gotland / Southeastern sweden then down towards Gdynia and Kaliningrad) you could have a decent sized map with ocean and coastline with multiple land bases for both sides.

 

Personally i feel like the southern scenario would be cooler.

 

Since that also makes for an possible later scenario with nato forces involved (Nato fighters in poland against russian forces in Kaliningrad)

[Krieg]

I was writing about historical basing, not estimated map size. If the gotland option is true I hope for mainland coasts from both sides. Where gotland is the territory being fought over. Taking of from gotland to fly ground attack over gotland would feel a bit claustrophobic I believe.

 

If only one mainland coast I would like latvia/estonia since I would hate redfor airstarts.

 

The polish option is an enticing one!

[El Hadji]

Having a map with just the coastline and Gotland would be pretty boring like all maps with mostly water are. It would make more sense to have the whole width of Sweden south of Vänern and perhaps include parts of Denmark and Bornholm. There were also plenty of airbases in this area: F5, F6, F7, F9, F10, F12, and F14.

 

The distance from F6 to Visby is less than 250 km's and from F7 to Visby it's 340 km's. From Såtenäs to Bornholm it's 390 km's. That is about half the distance from Vaziani to Anapa on the Caucasus map. As a matter of fact even northern parts of Poland could be included and it would still be smaller than the Caucasus map...

 

It would certainly be more fun from a gameplay point of view than flying over the Baltic sea from Aircraft Carrier Gotland...

[BravoYankee4]

The easiest approach (perhaps not the best) would be to do a map of northern Sweden, Norway, Finland and Russia. Less to model (since there isn't that much of infrastructure etc.) but still open for a lot of different scenarios including NATO.

[mattebubben]

ive been playing around some with google maps.

 

And im thinking of a map something like this could work pretty well.

 

Including the sea this map is slightly smaller then the Georgia map

 

(detail parts excluding the Ocean)

 

And you could also add some areas give or take (stockholm F7 maby more of estonia etc)

 

and i think you could get a pretty good map of a area similar to this.

 

Would be awsome to have a larger map (including stockholm all of southern sweden aswell as parts of denmark etc but it all depends on how large of a map Leatherneck feels they want to make.

 

But yea im really looking forward to this Module and cant wait for them to accounce it and release more info (including about the map)

Edited February 12, 2016 by mattebubben

[Brisse]

Yes mattebubben, that would be my dream-map :)

[Dahlbeck]

Trouble is, that would include several major urban areas...

[Brisse]

Trouble is, that would include several major urban areas...

 

Not more so than the Caucasus map?

[Dahlbeck]

Maybe not, but doing that area to the standard set by ED with the NTTR would probably be quite some undertaking.

 

I'd love to see it, of course. :-)

[Skjold]

ive been playing around some with google maps.

 

And im thinking of a map something like this could work pretty well.

 

Including the sea this map is slightly smaller then the Georgia map

 

(detail parts excluding the Ocean)

 

And you could also add some areas give or take (stockholm F7 maby more of estonia etc)

 

and i think you could get a pretty good map of a area similar to this.

 

Would be awsome to have a larger map (including stockholm all of southern sweden aswell as parts of denmark etc but it all depends on how large of a map Leatherneck feels they want to make.

 

But yea im really looking forward to this Module and cant wait for them to accounce it and release more info (including about the map)

 

That map includes many large cities, i highly doubt we will see anything of that magnitude. Don't get me wrong i would love it, but i don't find it realistic. Cut out all of Sweden and leave only Gotland, cut out all of Poland and parts of Kalinigrad then maybe. I added a map to show what i think we could get if we are lucky.

 

Edited February 12, 2016 by Skjold

[mattebubben]

That map includes many large cities, i highly doubt we will see anything of that magnitude. Don't get me wrong i would love it, but i don't find it realistic. Cut out all of Sweden and leave only Gotland, cut out all of Poland and parts of Kalinigrad then maybe. I added a map to show what i think we could get if we are lucky.

 

 

well the nevada map has lasvegas in it.

 

And Las vegas is larger and has a larger population then all those swedish cities combined.

 

the only large ish city in that "map" would be kaliningrad.

 

But it also depends on the scenario timeframe.

 

For example as the AJS-37 is a 90s upgrade then it would be after the fall of the soviet union.

 

So that makes Latvia Estonia and Lithuania independant.

 

To where the Only russian territory in the area would be kaliningrad.

 

And also have they said its gonna be as detailed as the Nevada map =P.

 

 

Im very sure its gonna be much closer to the caucasus standard then that of the nevada map.

 

Otherwise it would take way to long to make it and way to much resouces for it to be worth of them to add it unless they wanted to take full price for it.

 

But even just Gotland would take time if they wanted to make it as foto realistic as they made the Nevada map.

Edited February 12, 2016 by mattebubben

[mattebubben]

Maybe not, but doing that area to the standard set by ED with the NTTR would probably be quite some undertaking.

 

I'd love to see it, of course. :-)

 

The map they make (if they make one) will most likley not be the same standard as the NTTR map.

 

They just dont have the resourses / time to make a map as Foto realistic as the NTTR map.

 

My guess is that will be more comparable with the Caucasus map (and i rather have a Larger map with cities and a decent amount of land in the caucasus fidelity then Gotland and open seas in NTTR fidelity.

[Skjold]

I do agree with your comparisons to Las Vegas etc Mattebubben but they have described their theatres as "small" on several occasions, leading me to believe they will not be Caucausus/NTTR Size.

 

I also do agree with having a larger map with lower fidelity then a small one with high fidelity.

[Brisse]

I also do agree with having a larger map with lower fidelity then a small one with high fidelity.

 

There's a place for both I think. We don't have to restrict peoples choices now that DCS supports multiple maps :)

 

I'm sure there are some helicopter-pilots who would love a small but detailed map.

[King_Hrothgar]

There is certainly a place for both. One thing about map design is it has to match what you're trying to do. NTTR is stunningly beautiful in a MiG-21 flying at 5km up over the mountains. The details shown are impressive from that perspective and it doesn't hurt performance a bit compared to the far less pretty Caucasus map. But fly over those same mountains in a UH-1 at 5m AGL and those mountains don't look any better than they do on the old map. The reason is all that amazing detail is actually just textures, the 3d objects are typically just as flat as they are on the old map. I would love to see a dedicated chopper map that may only have 100km by 100km total area with a 75km by 75km detailed area. But in that area it would use actual 3d objects instead of textures to fake 3d objects. This map could look absolutely awful from an F-15 at 5km+ too, so long as it looks amazing at 0-1000m where tanks and choppers normally play. But that's all a bit OT, I don't expect LNS to take that plunge given their lack of interest in choppers.

 

Back on topic, I expect LNS's map will be mostly water and will not have any Russian territory at all. The AJS-37 is primarily an anti-ship plane after all. It will be most at home over the Baltic Sea.:smilewink:

[El Hadji]

There are no large cities in Sweden... Even the largest aren't that large compared to Las Vegas. And personally I couldn't care less if there are cars double parked outside the local strip joint when I pass in Mach 2. I think the level of detail of NTTR is wrong for a flight sim (and not enough for a ground war sim) so I would be more than happy with the level of detail the current Caucasus map offers.

 

I will probably not buy a map like the ones you suggest above since I want to use it with other aircraft and for other "what if" scenarios as well. I want beacons for navigation and I want to look at other stuff than water when I fly. The Viggens weren't designed to attack Kaliningrad anyway so from a realism standpoint it doesn't stand either. And from a gameplay perspective that area seems boring to say the least.

 

Also bear in mind that there is a BO105 helo coming for DCS as well. Are we going to have that flying around the island all day? Have you guys been to Gotland? The landscape except the rauks in the south is utterly boring and makes the sand of Nevada look rich in variation. And forest road bases? Where are you going to put them on Gotland? There wasn't even any permanent Cold War airbases on Gotland since they were all located on mainland Sweden.

[Skjold]

There are no large cities in Sweden... Even the largest aren't that large compared to Las Vegas. And personally I couldn't care less if there are cars double parked outside the local strip joint when I pass in Mach 2. I think the level of detail of NTTR is wrong for a flight sim (and not enough for a ground war sim) so I would be more than happy with the level of detail the current Caucasus map offers.

 

I will probably not buy a map like the ones you suggest above since I want to use it with other aircraft and for other "what if" scenarios as well. I want beacons for navigation and I want to look at other stuff than water when I fly. The Viggens weren't designed to attack Kaliningrad anyway so from a realism standpoint it doesn't stand either. And from a gameplay perspective that area seems boring to say the least.

 

Also bear in mind that there is a BO105 helo coming for DCS as well. Are we going to have that flying around the island all day? Have you guys been to Gotland? The landscape except the rauks in the south is utterly boring and makes the sand of Nevada look rich in variation. And forest road bases? Where are you going to put them on Gotland? There wasn't even any permanent Cold War airbases on Gotland since they were all located on mainland Sweden.

 

Let me rephrase then, cities with a fair amount of buildings which would take considerable effort to put into the sim. All fairly large cities on that map will surely be larger then all urban centers on Nevada.

 

Sweden: Karlskrona, Växsjö, Kalmar, Linköpig, Visby, Norrköping.

Poland, Kalinigrad & Baltics: Gdynia, Gdansk, Kalinigrad, Klaipeda, Liepaja, Ventspils.

(On mattebubben version)

 

Kalinigrad isn't meant for the Viggens to attack but rather the Soviets/Russians to operate form. And why would that place be uninteresting? It is essentially a military enclave IRL.

[RoflSeal]

Let me rephrase then, cities with a fair amount of buildings which would take considerable effort to put into the sim. All fairly large cities on that map will surely be larger then all urban centers on Nevada.

 

Sweden: Karlskrona, Växsjö, Kalmar, Linköpig, Visby, Norrköping.

Poland, Kalinigrad & Baltics: Gdynia, Gdansk, Kalinigrad, Klaipeda, Liepaja, Ventspils.

(On mattebubben version)

 

Kalinigrad isn't meant for the Viggens to attack but rather the Soviets/Russians to operate form. And why would that place be uninteresting? It is essentially a military enclave IRL.

 

Could have some sweet Cold War missions based around Kaliningrad

[mattebubben]

There are no large cities in Sweden... Even the largest aren't that large compared to Las Vegas. And personally I couldn't care less if there are cars double parked outside the local strip joint when I pass in Mach 2. I think the level of detail of NTTR is wrong for a flight sim (and not enough for a ground war sim) so I would be more than happy with the level of detail the current Caucasus map offers.

 

I will probably not buy a map like the ones you suggest above since I want to use it with other aircraft and for other "what if" scenarios as well. I want beacons for navigation and I want to look at other stuff than water when I fly. The Viggens weren't designed to attack Kaliningrad anyway so from a realism standpoint it doesn't stand either. And from a gameplay perspective that area seems boring to say the least.

 

Also bear in mind that there is a BO105 helo coming for DCS as well. Are we going to have that flying around the island all day? Have you guys been to Gotland? The landscape except the rauks in the south is utterly boring and makes the sand of Nevada look rich in variation. And forest road bases? Where are you going to put them on Gotland? There wasn't even any permanent Cold War airbases on Gotland since they were all located on mainland Sweden.

 

there is no way to make a (very) small map and still include large chunks for sweden gotland + a coast where the enemies can start.

 

If you want a small map where the BO105 would also be suited it would probably have to be a northern scenario.

 

But we still dont know what kinda map they are making just speculation.

 

And something like this

will be more then enough to use the BO-105 for (but this map is made for the AJS-37 not for the BO-105)

 

And also about the BO-105 was all for defensive operations.

 

So if the enemy lands or invades it will operate over swedish territory.

 

It would never leave Swedish territory.

 

Its even borderline if it would operate over gotland or stay in the mainland.

 

But back to the Map.

 

Parts of Poland or Lativa/lithuania would make for possible nato addition (since they are all nato members together with estonia)

 

And one of polands Mig-29 Squadrons is actually just below Gdansk (at malbork)

 

So just including that small are of poland (around Gdansk / Gdynia / malbork) would be more then enough for a additional Nato forces (Polish Mig-29s and maby US F-15s)

 

And there are plenty of fighter bases near to the coast in both poland kaliningrad and Latvia.

 

But we will have to wait and see for more details.

[Muppetlord]

Man if that was the actual map size that would be amazing...

 

I could bomb my own house...Oh what a dream.

[Brisse]

I could bomb my own house...Oh what a dream.

 

Me too :)