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Jammer strobing...


Jammer strobing...  

45 members have voted

  1. 1. Jammer strobing...

    • A realistic, and useful tactic that should be encouraged.
      11
    • A gray area in the sim due to limited ECM modelling.
      30
    • Unrealistic and unsportsmanlike in online engagements.
      4


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... your thoughts on its use in online engagements. It seems like a fairly effective means of disturbing an enemy's radar sorting tasks, and I find it often nullifies the effective use of TWS but is it a valid (read: realistic) practice? I don't know a lot about ECM implementation but my uneducated guess is that this strategy would be illegitimate, if not impossible in the real world. If that's the case, doing so in the game seems unsportsmanlike.

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I would think that the jammers would have a duty cycle of some kind. IE: So long turned on, so long turned off to cool down or risk frying something. Think of the Su-25T's laser for an example of what I speak of.

 

Maybe they could, at some point, implement a duty cycle for ECM pods?

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Actually, I think once they implement better HoJ and TWS modes, as well as dump the silly missile pure pursuit trajectory in HoJ, strobing will become quite useless and in fact dangerous.

 

The jammer, the SPJ specifically, is meant mostly to break an STT track and typically is automated to do exactly that. It provides a -very- accurate and bright target for any incoming missile and with a missile in the air, having your SPJ on may in fact be worse than keeping it off - there are exceptions, like the huge ECM packagesonboard bombers which will simply not trigger HoJ and just trick missiles by adjusting the jammer signal in such a manner that the missile calculates the wrong Vc for example, etc.

 

Fighter SPJ's however are much simpler and less powerful by comparison, and fighter radars will do things like maintaining an STT or STT-like lock on your plane/jammer just to keep your jammer ON and give their missiles more accurate guidance.

 

So, ECM is modelled in the game, but not modelled all that realistically. There are a -lot- of little quirks like this in LOMAC, and wether people consider them unsportsmanship or valid tactics really doesn't matter; eventually they'll be fixed, in the meantime, you've got to live with'em.

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As GG says we need to live with these little quirks. Well until burnthrough range that is. ;) :lol:

 

Only time I use my ECM is when locked by ground targets. If I even think that there is a possibility of an AMRAAM in the air is it switched off and I get out of dodge fast and let my CAP deal with them. :joystick: If I am the fighter I never use ECM. Full stop. When flying the Sues I take extra R-73's

 

IMHO all ECM use does is act like a beacon.... "Hey, I'm over here where these little lines are" :lol:

 

 

BTW can we hang the "ECM-on-startup-procedure" guys next. :D ;)

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ECM & ECCM is very simple in Lock On.

Like it was said 100x times turning your ECM on during spool up procedure is just plain stupid and whoever does it just asks to be shot down. ECM should be used only in certain tactical situations and that's it (and better remember to turn it off then when situation changes). The key to properly use ECM in Lock On is actually the understanding in what situations it should be used.

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I'm not sure what the point of this is- Do you want to see jammers removed? Badly modeled as they may be- most of the problems online are based in USER error. If you use them wisely- they are effective tools- even if they are inaccurately modeled. If you don't use them wisely- you'll have issues. Combine that with many just refusing to get on comms- and you have a teamkilling waiting to happen. I simply don't see modeling perfection coming to this category- ever.

 

By the way- try as I might- I am guilty of jammer faux pas too. I forget to turn them off as I'm heading home from time to time. Difference is- I am in constant communication from my team so everytime someone asks anyone about jamming status- I have a look at my light. We also say- "jammers on" Comms is the key.

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Modelling it correctly wouldn't be too hard ... starting with giving missiles proportional navigation in HoJ and getting rid of the dropped lock ue to jammer flash, ESPECIALLY in TWS. In STT, the radar should continue to attempt to remain STT and prod the jamming aircraft to continue jamming to give its missile the best chance of hitting.

 

Jamming, like chaff, should require defensive maneuvering to be effective, ie. Jam, then get in the notch and shut off the jammer. Right now, the jammers are far too effective, -especially- due to the lack of PN in HoJ.

 

Put PN back in HoJ and things will change immidiately.

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Too many people use them from start-up on line. How many times do we have to say it's not part of the precedure. I wish I could post a screenshot, there is no need to fly with them on the whole time. All you are doing is being a flashlight in the dark for the bad guys.

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I'm not sure what the point of this is- Do you want to see jammers removed? Badly modeled as they may be- most of the problems online are based in USER error. If you use them wisely- they are effective tools- even if they are inaccurately modeled. If you don't use them wisely- you'll have issues. Combine that with many just refusing to get on comms- and you have a teamkilling waiting to happen. I simply don't see modeling perfection coming to this category- ever.

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...and getting rid of the dropped lock ue to jammer flash, ESPECIALLY in TWS. In STT, the radar should continue to attempt to remain STT and prod the jamming aircraft to continue jamming to give its missile the best chance of hitting...

There was a time when life was simpler and I could get my head around some concepts. But I'm older now and evidently no wiser. At any rate, I'm having a hard time understanding why turning on a jammer wouldn't break an STT lock at a pre-burnthrough range. The original lock was on the aircraft. The jammer breaks the lock. The only thing available now to lock is the jamming signal.

 

Now, I have zilch experience in the F-15--we're talking sim here, nor RL--but I have a few hours in the RusFor aircraft (again sim-time). In the RusFor aircraft, if you are in BVR scan mode, lock a target and it starts jamming, the lock is broken and you have to now lock the jamming signal manually. And this seem correct to me. You are, after all, in a manual mode. But I've seen that--at least at medium ranges (30-50? km)--if I am in what passes for TWS mode in the RusFor aircraft and a locked target starts jamming, the lock remains because the relocking is automatic.

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Right, and it ought to stay automatic, in particular at longer ranges where your antenna actually sees 'more' (wider angle) ... relocking is a split-second operation after HoJ is detected. Now if the jammer's pretty tricky it oculd fool the radar into not realizing it's being jammed, but that's the realm of huge bomber ECM packages typically, not fighter SPJ's.

 

Let me describe a scenario here: STT is quite a bit more stable than search of any kind (ie. it's easier to drop a contact in search then it is to drop a lock) ... so you'd turn away from the bandit, as your jammer worked to break the lock, and after the lock is broken, and the jammer shuts off, it may not be possible to re-establish lock on your aircraft.

 

Now we get into the realm of modern radars that'll happily lock onto the HoJ signal, and continue pounding away an STT signal at the same time as required - you don't have enough time to get out of the antenna FoV before it relocks, so, yikes.

 

This is why jammers are a one-trick pony ... you might find something works well against an enemy radar, you use it, it gets recorded, next time it gives them the most accurate guidance they could hope for.

 

Keep this in mind:

SPJs use angle and range jamming (in the simplest case), and you can only 'burn through' against angle jamming. You should not be able to burn through against range jamming ... it's quite likely that by using both, you can break a bvr lock, but once you burn through the angle jamming, end of the road - the antenna will stay on the target and you can range'em using a trig procedure.

 

These things aren't modelled in LOMAC, which is why you see the behaviour you currently see.

 

If you wanna talk about it, find me on TS sometime, it's a fairly complex subject ... and it -could- be modelled well enough -but- what you -cannot- model is relative ECM/ECCM tecnology and technique, unfortunately, so it would work the same for everyone (in some sense, this is reasonably realistic).

 

Hm. Look at me babble. Hope that helped a bit.

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