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Tactics against low flying Su27s


OnlyforDCS
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Hi, Im a bit of a noob in BVR so bear with me. I need some help against low flying Su27s. Talking about a fight against AI Flankers which always seem to get me if they are close to the deck and Im (relatively high).

 

I always try to engage from altitude, and at speed so that my AIM120Cs have the best possible chance to reach their target. What usually happens is this, I engage from 15-20k ft, firing from about 10-12nm, against HOT Su27s, which are flying at about 1-2k ft altitude. I wait for pitbull, and then beam away but for some reason my 120s almost always miss or slam into the ground while the flankers' ERs or ETs get me while Im beaming away. It seems that their missiles in this look up situation have enough energy to reach me and don't pay much attention to chaff or flares. So...any help, tips on how to approach situations like this?

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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At 10-12 miles, it might be safe to just turn around immediately at launch. Use your altitude to dive, pick up speed, and extend. Make a mental note of target azimuth and altitude so you can reacquire them easily. It doesn't sound like you're doing anything wrong really, maybe post some tracks?

 

Are the Flankers flying behind hills, causing your missiles to lose track? Do you make sure to follow the HUD aiming cue, so that your missiles don't waste energy turning on target?

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Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files

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Im not using the jammer, and the map is Nevada, so not much cover there. I will post a track later once I get the chance. Meanwhile this is the mission if anyone wants to try it.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2579752&postcount=12

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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If you're at 15-20,000ft and they're on the deck you can close to ~7nmi without their missiles being a very lethal threat.

 

S-turns at 600KCAS/7g from 15 to 8nmi, turn in, shoot, split S with flares and run off laughing. EDIT: Depending on your dive angle as you turn in on them you might want to pop the brakes out/cut the throttle...

 

Though TBH, SARH missiles are pretty dumb as it comes to chaff rejection (that's NOT a statement on realism...); so you can beam and dive while spewing CMs (preferably 30-60 chaff and 15+ flares when you think there's an IR missile within 2nmi) and survive.

 

Against Alamos (R-27s) its all about countermeasures/aspect...

 

With AIM-120s it changes because the 120C is immune to chaff...so its all about giving the missile a massive angle problem to solve with no energy right before it's going to hit...or just chicken out and run away! :D


Edited by Sweep
something about flying 600kts+ into the ground...

"Salt Shaker" - Long live v1.2.2, home of the 10 minute flight

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Thanks for the suggestions sweep, Ill try that and report back, hopefully with a .trk file.

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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Ok, here is the track. This time I managed to get an ET in the face from the deck before my AIMs even got close. I didn't snake in though, so that was probably my mistake?

evening intercept F15C.trk

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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What you have to do against the AI in this case is force them defensive and then press. They are most likely killing you with ETs that they can fire if you're in AB at that altitude from 13nm. Get out of AB before you get at that range, fire a 120 and wait for them to go defensive and run them down. They will ditch their ER in favor of staying alive vs your 120. You'll need to acquire them visually and lock them with boresight to fire again when they recommit. If you've closed to within 4-6nm it should definitely be a kill, but be prepared to come off the burner and flare as they bring the nose around.

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Played through it again, this time from 20k feet, using STT lock to have better gimbal width, snaking in from 20nm and dropping chaff in each turn. Fired two AIM120C, got an ER right in the face as the first missile went pitbull....

 

This is getting frustrating. Im getting LA at least 10-15s after the Su27s despite having a height advantage of over 15k feet!

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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Played through it again, this time from 20k feet, using STT lock to have better gimbal width, snaking in from 20nm and dropping chaff in each turn. Fired two AIM120C, got an ER right in the face as the first missile went pitbull....

 

This is getting frustrating. Im getting LA at least 10-15s after the Su27s despite having a height advantage of over 15k feet!

 

What range are you starting at?

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Dropping chaff here and there is not an effective way to use it, IMO...nor is dropping chaff at high aspect (135+/head-on to the target)

 

Get on the beam or turn your rear towards the missile and drop loads of it (25+) for maximum effectiveness.

 

Quicky edit: Also, turn labels on and get a feel for enemy missile time of flight (TOF) at various speeds, ranges, and altitudes...that's what helped me (and bashing my head into a multiplayer BVR wall on 104th all the time... :D)

"Salt Shaker" - Long live v1.2.2, home of the 10 minute flight

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What range are you starting at?

 

I acquire the targets some 50nm out if thats what you are asking. Check out the .trk file.

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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Dropping chaff here and there is not an effective way to use it, IMO...nor is dropping chaff at high aspect (135+/head-on to the target)

 

Get on the beam or turn your rear towards the missile and drop loads of it (25+) for maximum effectiveness.

 

Quicky edit: Also, turn labels on and get a feel for enemy missile time of flight (TOF) at various speeds, ranges, and altitudes...that's what helped me (and bashing my head into a multiplayer BVR wall on 104th all the time... :D)

 

Turning on labels feels like cheating, although I get that it would probably be helpful. Still, something feels off since I usually have pretty good SA I don't think that the enemy flankers should be getting such a range advantage on me, especially with the altitude advantage. The only way I can survive is to turn defensive before my AIMs go pitbull and they invariably miss after that. Its as if the enemy flankers have the altitude advantage, it goes against everything Ive read about BVR tactics....Do the ERs and ETs really have such a range advantage over the AIM120C?


Edited by OnlyforDCS

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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Its not cheating, its training! :D

 

The ER and ET shouldn't really have a range advantage in-game atm...I think, although we all know how the AI likes to 'bend' the rules a little bit... :)

"Salt Shaker" - Long live v1.2.2, home of the 10 minute flight

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(and bashing my head into a multiplayer BVR wall on 104th all the time... :D)

 

This is the real key to getting good at BVR combat. It's slow, and very painful, but after over a year of spending 5-10 hours a week flying (READ: dying) on 104th, I can reliably clean up just about anywhere else, unless I find myself going head to head with a practiced (human) squadron.

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Ah yeah, ER is supposedly better if the Flanker is way the heck up there...

 

Totally forgot about that AND never tested it... :(

A few days ago, I was able to reach out to around 90km with an -ER (against non-jamming AI F-16). Against an F-15C, I noticed that my ability to lock (HPRF) had less range than my -ER's max range at the time.

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One of the things that kinda surprised me while doing some missile testing recently is that with medium range missiles firing uphill doesn't seem to be much more disadvantageous than firing downhill. The altitude difference doesn't seem to matter that much (if disregarding launch platform speed which is potentially higher for a high flying plane). What matters most is the mean air density on the flight route of the missile. This means that a steeply uphill shot actually has a better range than a shot at a co-altitude target. And a steeply downhill shot has shorter range than a co-altitude shot. The same reason why medium/long-range SAMs have longer effective ranges against high-flying targets.

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I acquire the targets some 50nm out if thats what you are asking. Check out the .trk file.

 

Ok. I'm away from home and can't look at the track. I ask because you would only be getting hit at pitbull if you're doing a number of things wrong, one of which is likely letting them fire first. If you're not jamming at that range I would expect the AI to climb to meet you at ALT. Its interesting if they are staying low though.

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One of the things that kinda surprised me while doing some missile testing recently is that with medium range missiles firing uphill doesn't seem to be much more disadvantageous than firing downhill. The altitude difference doesn't seem to matter that much (if disregarding launch platform speed which is potentially higher for a high flying plane). What matters most is the mean air density on the flight route of the missile. This means that a steeply uphill shot actually has a better range than a shot at a co-altitude target. And a steeply downhill shot has shorter range than a co-altitude shot. The same reason why medium/long-range SAMs have longer effective ranges against high-flying targets.

 

Makes a lot of sense. That could very well be it.

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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One of the things that kinda surprised me while doing some missile testing recently is that with medium range missiles firing uphill doesn't seem to be much more disadvantageous than firing downhill. The altitude difference doesn't seem to matter that much (if disregarding launch platform speed which is potentially higher for a high flying plane). What matters most is the mean air density on the flight route of the missile. This means that a steeply uphill shot actually has a better range than a shot at a co-altitude target. And a steeply downhill shot has shorter range than a co-altitude shot. The same reason why medium/long-range SAMs have longer effective ranges against high-flying targets.

 

Yeah, without loft, the BVR missiles don't take advantage of thin air at altitude. Just flying higher in DCS won't give you a big range advantage, but it does give you an energy advantage.

[sIGPIC]http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk187/Exorcet/F-15singaturebaseACOmodifiedcomp-1.jpg[/sIGPIC]

Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files

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As far as AAMs go, what the guidance does with the glidepath matters. In this game, no such thing is done. And it will give you a huge range advantage.

 

In other words, your conclusions are completely incorrect with respect to realism (but correct for this game), due to factors that you do not control.

 

What matters most is the mean air density on the flight route of the missile. This means that a steeply uphill shot actually has a better range than a shot at a co-altitude target. And a steeply downhill shot has shorter range than a co-altitude shot. The same reason why medium/long-range SAMs have longer effective ranges against high-flying targets.

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In your track you engaged the Su25 strikers while the Su27's pressed in and killed you. First mistake was poor target sorting. Pay attention to the NCTR to ID the primary threat aircraft. You should have been able to engage them well before they were in ET range, had you noticed them split from the Frogfoots.

 

Yeah watched that track again and that is what happened in that case. Still, most of the time the Su27s come in first, and the fight is over even before that. I will try the mission again, this time dropping to co-altitude before engaging. Just to see what happens. (and taking care not to mix them up with the frogfoots, thanks for that tip.)


Edited by OnlyforDCS

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

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