Flight model

[Brisse]

Oh. I am reading your post but I cannot reply since CptSmiley is the one with the knowledge and he is out for the time being.

 

I think he deserves a few days off :)

 

One way to easily see the problem is to yank the stick back and forth in the pitch axis while on the ground. Look at the control surfaces, and you will see them pretty much instantly teleporting to their end positions. That's not physically possible on a real aircraft.

[jojo]

Please guys, tell me if you see inertia here:

 

 

or here

 

 

A far as I'm concerned, pilot's shoulders in the cockpit have more inertia than the plane itself :D

Edited December 25, 2015 by jojo

[Fri13]

Very much appreciated this plane.

 

My impression about flight model is that it feels a bit like on rails. It is very responsive and extremely precise in moves. Flying inverted is perfectly stabile with 0 input on joystick for example.

 

I am no expert and I would like to check others opinions too !

 

As mentioned, it is the Fly By Wire system working.

 

 

Unlike with previous systems, where the computer will assist your moves, your moves will continue doing things and you need to react to your own actions that might have caused something else to happen. Like if you move stick to right to go inverted, aircraft does exactly that but because your every other input stays as was, your flight path changes.

 

Now with a modern FBW system the computer flies straight and operates all the control surfaces etc to do so. When you move stick to right to go inverted, computer will notice that you wanted just to roll 180 degree to right and will move all control surfaces to keep everything else (your heading) intact. So you don't need to react to anything else that your wish to roll was causing.

 

Without FBW system you would have a physical link to the control surfaces and it would be very heavy to fly aircraft as your own physical strength is required to move stick and pedals and the force from air is fighting against your command.

With FBW system the controls and control surfaces are separated so computer will move those as accurately as your stick movements go.

 

The old style and the newer style of FBW is like driving manual or automatic transmission vehicle. Some people prefer to have manual as it gives them better feel and touch what is happening and control. But some people prefer the automatic as you don't need to think about vehicle but just focus to keep your vehicle heading correctly and automatics will detect when tires are slipping, tries breaking capability are uneffective etc.

The old manner without FBW would be that you would be driving a pedal car :D

[Fri13]

I noticed the flight model seem to be lacking simulation of control surface actuators. What I mean is that the control surfaces immediately moves into position at infinity high speed. This could be a reason for some of the complaints I've seen such as "lack of roll inertia" and "on rails". I'm pretty sure other DCS modules simulate the limitations of control surface actuators. You can see when you come out of a fast roll how the FBW dampens the roll, but if the control surface actuators had some limitations of what they are able to do then that dampening would be less effective.

 

So if someone didn't get that, that would be like pressing button for opening air brakes, the brakes would open immediately to maximum deflection position, and then back in when pressing again, without them correctly opening slowly and even depending little bit of air speed etc.

[jojo]

Indeed you're telling the FBW what you want to do, the FBW moves the control surface to give you just that.

 

The FBW can even counter auto pitch up by sending pitch down order while you're pulling the stick aft :smilewink:

[cfarsr]

Turn the roll stability off then see how fast it actually rolls. I managed to black out in about 1 second from just a roll

[TomCatMucDe]

Please guys, tell me if you see inertia here:

 

 

or here

 

 

A far as I'm concerned, pilot's shoulders in the cockpit have more inertia than the plane itself :D

 

 

I can't see the videos. Is it me or the links are broken ?

[jojo]

I can't see the videos. Is it me or the links are broken ?

 

It must be you...it's ok with me !

[TomCatMucDe]

QUOTE=jojo;2614378]It must be you...it's ok with me !

Thanks Jojo, the problem was in Tapatalk.

 

Sure there is little inertia effect, but still the FM needs polishing in this respect. It's way too abrupt. Especially if you do continuous rolling (tonneaux) Its a bit faster and more aggressive than this footage.

[jojo]

QUOTE=jojo;2614378]It must be you...it's ok with me !

Thanks Jojo, the problem was in Tapatalk.

 

Sure there is little inertia effect, but still the FM needs polishing in this respect. It's way too abrupt. Especially if you do continuous rolling (tonneaux) Its a bit faster and more aggressive than this footage.

 

We don't know if these roll are full stick :smilewink:

 

So yes it may need polishing here and there. But I don't really see inertia some are crying for.

 

It has to fly differently from fighters you already have in DCS. And the only 2 with comparable flight model are much bigger (F-15 & Su 27) and don't have such advanced FBW.

[Winfield_Gold]

I love the plane, but one thing that I feel like missing is the roll inertia. You do a full left stick and start rolling like crazy, then as soon as you bring the stick back, the plane stops rolling instantly. There is no roll inertia whatsoever. Even with FBW on, this should not be possible.

 

Never been to a Mil airshow bud?

 

Ever seen a mil plane complete a 4 point turn?

 

 

[Hummingbird]

Have a look:

 

 

 

The inertia is quite clear there though, as you see the aircraft rock abit when instantly stopping a fast roll. If this is missing ingame then it needs correcting.

[hellking]

Please guys, tell me if you see inertia here:

 

 

or here

 

 

A far as I'm concerned, pilot's shoulders in the cockpit have more inertia than the plane itself :D

 

Am I the only person who actually sees some inertia in the videos? :huh: I think it is a very subtle effect and some people just don't get bothered by the lack of it. I fly in DCS with Oculus Rift DK2 and perhaps when you are immersed in VR, small details become more visible.

 

By the way, my issue is really not with FBW, but about what it can and it cannot do. To me, even with FBW a roll cannot end as abruptly as it is in the game right now. I see a big difference between the videos and the game (and I have watched all videos posted so far), but I may be more sensitive to this than others...

 

I really wish Dev's address this because it ruins the realism for me.

[TomCatMucDe]

I agree, there is some inertia on the videos. It's much less than other aircrafts but still.

It's a beta so no surprise that we will find things to be polished. I just hope that it'll be prioritized and addressed. The FM is more important than the missing avionics in my eyes.

[OnlyforDCS]

I noticed the flight model seem to be lacking simulation of control surface actuators. What I mean is that the control surfaces immediately moves into position at infinity high speed. This could be a reason for some of the complaints I've seen such as "lack of roll inertia" and "on rails". I'm pretty sure other DCS modules simulate the limitations of control surface actuators. You can see when you come out of a fast roll how the FBW dampens the roll, but if the control surface actuators had some limitations of what they are able to do then that dampening would be less effective.

 

Edit: Are you reading this Razbam, or do I have to make a bug report?

 

Yes it appears that the control surfaces move very, very fast. This is very easy to test. On the ground press F2 to go to outside view. Move your mouse so that you can see the elevons from the back. Move your stick around. You will notice that sometimes the elevons move naturally, but at other times they will flick up and down almost instantly.

[Hook47]

The inertia is quite clear there though, as you see the aircraft rock abit when instantly stopping a fast roll. If this is missing ingame then it needs correcting.

 

Actually those videos just made me realize how great the in game FM really is. The roll behavior in game seems extremely similar.

[Hummingbird]

Alright back from trying out the M2000C, and regarding the roll I too feel a lack of inertia and I believe it has to do with the reaction speed of the flight surfaces.

 

Looking from the outside they seem to react at unrealistically fast speeds, they infact flicker sometimes. This leads to a less dynamic flying experience as the aircraft feels weightless.

 

As videos posted earlier clearly demonstrate the real aircraft by comparison does exhibit a small but very noticable amount of wing rocking upon abruptly stopping a fast roll. You can't prevent this with any form of FBW as it would require instant deflection of flight surfaces through several degrees, which quite simply isn't possible.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Hummingbird

[Zeus67]

We will have to wait for CptSmiley return so he can answer your concerns with authority.

[Hummingbird]

Btw I'd like to add that the lack of a little inertia during fast rolls is the only complaint I have atm, and really it's not much which is needed.

 

Otherwise great module, and I'm sure we'll see it improve to become even greater over time :)

[WR269]

Really enjoying this aeroplane at the moment, it is what it is, I have never flown an M2000 in real life so whatever they give me is a new experience to enjoy. Graphics are stunning, sounds are terrific and performing turns like I used to see the old Mirage III on display is a blast. Thanks to the developers, great release

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hummingbird]

2:50 min, watch as the aircraft rocks ever so slightly after it abruptly stops the roll.

 

aytcwZ75Akk

[jojo]

About the red cover switch:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2613849&postcount=20

 

Can't tell better, and of course, you're supposed to be gentle on stick when in this mode, high AoA is not an option.

[jojo]

2:50 min, watch as the aircraft rocks ever so slightly after it abruptly stops the roll.

 

We don't know what the pilot he's doing with his stick. Maybe he's trying to adjust bank angle or something.

[Croaker47]

With rolls at that speed, can you physically center the joystick without a little nudge in the opposite direction?

 

What I mean is, is that bump at the end due to inertia of the plane, or the inertia of the pilot's hand suddenly snapping back in the other direction once the roll ends (And then he corrects for the right bank angle).

 

I've never flown in real life, so that's something I've wondered so far as changes in Gs affecting handling.

[stephane]

I love the plane, but one thing that I feel like missing is the roll inertia. You do a full left stick and start rolling like crazy, then as soon as you bring the stick back, the plane stops rolling instantly. There is no roll inertia whatsoever. Even with FBW on, this should not be possible. The flight surfaces have their limits. They should not be able to bring a plane at full roll to a full roll stop in miliseconds.

 

This is the only big issue I have with the flight model. Other than this it all feels good. I hope they fix this because it is destroys all the immersion for me..

 

i think i agree with you... but i only flight DR400 ... Is someone can precise if the real plane can react like that ?