Radar IFF

[sorcer3r]

The end result from your way of doing things is never being able to tell friend from enemy. This is clearly incredibly unrealistic, so why do you want to make the game less believable?

 

Off course it is possible to ID your target without IFF.

IFF is just a tool that could help you.

 

Flying without IFF sure doesn't sound realistic to me.

 

Also IRL there are situations where pilots have to switch off their IFF.

(And as far is I know these situations are similar to what we have on MP servers ;) )

[Johnny Dioxin]

Not really in this discussion, but nevertheless, looking at your statements,

 

 

IFF is just a tool that could help you.

 

But one that is used extensively, on a standard, daily basis (otherwise known as SOP).

 

Also IRL there are situations where pilots have to switch off their IFF.

(And as far is I know these situations are similar to what we have on MP servers )

 

But these are only certain circumstances and not general air combat/CAP/whatever

[winchesterdelta1]

If i use your logic having no IFF is also unrealistic. Because in real life yo have a entire team behind you in all kind of aircraft and ground bases to help you out with IFF. So using your logic DCS is entirely broken until we have that and they have to fix that first. But that is not going to happen.

And your suggestion by doing IFF with AWACS is also unrealistic. Because the AWACS in game knows Friend from foe instantly and in real live even the AWACS does not know that and have to check it against all kind of flight plans and use other systems providing information to them. So we should just take everything out using your logic.

Edited December 27, 2015 by winchesterdelta1

[Flagrum]

please guys, don't ask Razbam to fix all DCS limitations while they have to adapt M-2000 to both DCS World 1.5 & 2.0 builds

 

Don't ask Razbam for more, the thing is not in their hands. If you want a realistic IFF ask Wags.

This.

[sorcer3r]

But one that is used extensively, on a standard, daily basis (otherwise known as SOP).

 

[...]

 

But these are only certain circumstances and not general air combat/CAP/whatever

 

With arcade IFF it is not possible to follow SOPs because arcade IFF is always on, stealth and works always 100%.

I am not for an 100% realistic IFF but it has to be more complex than just a "labels on" mode.

 

If i use your logic having no IFF is also unrealistic. Because in real life yo have a entire team behind you in all kind of aircraft and ground bases to help you out with IFF. So using your logic DCS is entirely broken until we have that and they have to fix that first. But that is not going to happen.

 

Nope, a working AWACS AI is a good start.

[ttaylor0024]

With arcade IFF it is not possible to follow SOPs because arcade IFF is always on, stealth and works always 100%.

I am not for an 100% realistic IFF but it has to be more complex than just a "labels on" mode.

 

 

 

Nope, a working AWACS AI is a good start.

 

Go somewhere else if you want to complain about issues RAZBAM cannot fix. There's no actual IFF transponder in any DCS aircraft. I absolutely cannot believe that out of everything in DCS you have an issue with being able to tell friend from foe, a matter that is a huge problem when you have a 20 on 20 furball online, but from the sounds of it, that's not really your thing anyway.

 

If you want full SOP then why don't you be the one to create the mission? Very few would actually enjoy a mission like that because nobody really likes circling over the middle of nowhere for 10-12hrs without having the authority to release a weapon...

 

With your logic, we should have airframe or engine failures ramped up as well. There's no way 50 aircraft IRL would be free of any MX bugs at the same time. We should have ~10 pilots sitting on the ramp for hours while their aircraft gets fixed too. We should also have to do our own walk arounds, check our own tire pressure, and sit in a 4+hr preflight brief.

 

I can only hope you never get up to use the restroom when simming. Get those bags ready.

 

 

The sim is the way it is for a reason- it works. As real as you would want to get on a home PC.

[sorcer3r]

I absolutely cannot believe that out of everything in DCS you have an issue with being able to tell friend from foe, a matter that is a huge problem when you have a 20 on 20 furball online, but from the sounds of it, that's not really your thing anyway.

 

You do not need an arcade IFF to handle 20 vs 20 engagements.

 

 

The sim is the way it is for a reason- it works. As real as you would want to get on a home PC.

 

There is still room for improvement. Even for home pc standards.

[iLOVEwindmills]

You do not need an arcade IFF to handle 20 vs 20 engagements

 

You can tell which planes are friendly and enemy despite the type being on both sides? Do you even play mp?

[ttaylor0024]

You do not need an arcade IFF to handle 20 vs 20 engagements.

 

There is still room for improvement. Even for home pc standards.

 

If you don't, then enlighten us on how you would want it to be, seeing as even AWAC wouldn't know who you're talking about in the scenario... And we already know how well raygun calls work.

 

There's always room for improvement, but you need to also be realistic in what you want out of the game engine when it's already taxed as it is. Until the coding is possible, an arcade IFF like half the aircraft in the sim have already will suffice.

[sorcer3r]

If you don't, then enlighten us on how you would want it to be, seeing as even AWAC wouldn't know who you're talking about in the scenario... And we already know how well raygun calls work.

 

There's always room for improvement, but you need to also be realistic in what you want out of the game engine when it's already taxed as it is. Until the coding is possible, an arcade IFF like half the aircraft in the sim have already will suffice.

 

You can tell which planes are friendly and enemy despite the type being on both sides? Do you even play mp?

 

 

Yes I do.

 

1. AWACs (AI or human) calls.

2. raygun/bullseye calls via voice comms

3. visual ID if they are in dogfight and I need to help.

 

 

... an arcade IFF like half the aircraft in the sim have already will suffice.

 

AFAIK only FC3 modules have the arcade IFF not the DCS modules.

(Don't know about the Mig21 but if they implemented the fc3 IFF it is for sure a sad thing)

[RoflSeal]

Yes I do.

 

1. AWACs (AI or human) calls.

2. raygun/bullseye calls via voice comms

3. visual ID if they are in dogfight and I need to help.

 

 

1. AWACs is borked and so servers don't run AWACS

 

2. They need to be on voice comms first of all and even then, they may not respond especially if they are already in a dogfight.

 

3. Explain to me how you can tell the Difference between a BLUE F-15C and a RED F-15C on the 104th Server. Afaik the only differency is Blue has USAF insignia on Nose and RED has IAF isignia, which you can only tell when you are basically in formation flight

[SirBunker]

AFAIK only FC3 modules have the arcade IFF not the DCS modules.

(Don't know about the Mig21 but if they implemented the fc3 IFF it is for sure a sad thing)

 

MiG-21 is no different. You press the IFF interrogator and for a brief time the radar shows a corresponding symbol based on whether the contact is blue or red.

 

Edit: or to put it more accurately, whether the contact is friendly or unknown.

Edited December 27, 2015 by SirBunker

[ttaylor0024]

Yes I do.

 

1. AWACs (AI or human) calls.

2. raygun/bullseye calls via voice comms

3. visual ID if they are in dogfight and I need to help.

 

 

 

 

AFAIK only FC3 modules have the arcade IFF not the DCS modules.

(Don't know about the Mig21 but if they implemented the fc3 IFF it is for sure a sad thing)

 

Seeing how AWACs won't be able to distinguish a friendly F-15 from an enemy one, and the same is true for the person flying it, that's out of the question.

 

You must not play much MP, because raygun calls do not work as I just mentioned, especially as the servers get larger and the 20 on 20 + scenarios happen. Who's going to know if it's a friendly or enemy locking them?

 

Again, good luck telling a friendly from enemy F-15 in a dogfight, especially when the view distance is so limited.

 

The MiG-21 IFF system is push-to-interrogate, the same way it works in the M2kc

[sorcer3r]

1. AWACs is borked and so servers don't run AWACS

 

2. They need to be on voice comms first of all and even then, they may not respond especially if they are already in a dogfight.

 

3. Explain to me how you can tell the Difference between a BLUE F-15C and a RED F-15C on the 104th Server. Afaik the only differency is Blue has USAF insignia on Nose and RED has IAF isignia, which you can only tell when you are basically in formation flight

 

1. That's why a working AWACS should be priority #1 and not an arcade IFF for DCS modules.

 

2. In this case and if visual ID is not possible I should stay out of that engagement.

 

3. Seems to be a bad choice of skins in this case (Isn't there a red flag skin for the F15?).

Anyway in this case I have to use comms.

[Big Nuts]

Yeah a working AWACS and Ground control would be nice, not to mention atc that regulates it's zone of control.

I would have thought these were important, but they've been this way since forever.:joystick:

[Azrayen]

Looks like public servers would gain a lot if using LotAtc (+ trained controllers, one per coalition minimum) and UniversRadio (+TS) with set frequencies in mission briefing.

 

Sure, it's bigger work than today. IMO, it's worth it though.

[jojo]

Looks like public servers would gain a lot if using LotAtc (+ trained controllers, one per coalition minimum) and UniversRadio (+TS) with set frequencies in mission briefing.

 

Sure, it's bigger work than today. IMO, it's worth it though.

 

They also have IIFF emulation :thumbup:

[mvsgas]

Looking for info on the Mirage 2000C, I stumble in this:

This is a direct PDF link

THE "CAPABILITIES GAP" IN DESERT STORM

on page 20

French aircraft had very specific roles despite their multipurpose capabilities. The

Mirage 2000s came from air defense units and were used strictly in air-to-air role. The only jam

resistant radio equipped deployed French fighter, Mirage 2000s could interrogate friendly IFF

but not identify enemy aircraft.84

The reference given was:

Major Didier Paquet, French Air Force, interviewed by LtCol Christopher Haave, USAF Foreign Exchange Student, French Joint Defense College, 9 April 2001.

Anyone ever seen this interview of Major Didier Paquet?

[jojo]

Looking for info on the Mirage 2000C, I stumble in this:

This is a direct PDF link

THE "CAPABILITIES GAP" IN DESERT STORM

on page 20

 

The reference given was:

 

Anyone ever seen this interview of Major Didier Paquet?

 

Man, the short passage about FAF and its aircrafts is full of mistakes...:doh:

 

However, Mirage 2000 C RDI S4 from Orange deployed in 1991 for Gulf War didn't have NCTR.

But it was later added to Mirage 2000 C RDI S5.

 

Mirage 2000s could interrogate friendly IFF but not identify enemy aircraft.84

 

BTW, in 1991 many western fighters lacked IFF interrogator (F-16, F/A-18 Hornet), so it wasn't so bad.

Edited January 2, 2016 by jojo

[mvsgas]

I'm just looking for the reference, the interview he mentions.

[F31x]

How can some people be really so ignorant and do not "allow" the simplified (arcade) IFF to be implemented? Just because you are not flying online? IFF is very very important for online missions and especially for a dogfight. We are three-four people at the evening at our TS server, just want to enjoy a round of DCS MP (104th or another server) - so we need the IFF (arcade) system.

 

And about FC3 Modules...Su-27, MiG 29, F-15C etc...maybe some people should get in mind that this (besides the M-2000C) are the only modern Fighter-Jets in DCS and this is WHY people like to play them online...hm?

 

Without a question a full modeled IFF and a full functioning AWACS would be nice...but the short term solution is the simplified (arcade) IFF System - thats it and nothing else!

[OxideMako]

Man, the short passage about FAF and its aircrafts is full of mistakes...:doh:

 

However, Mirage 2000 C RDI S4 from Orange deployed in 1991 for Gulf War didn't have NCTR.

But it was later added to Mirage 2000 C RDI S5.

 

 

 

BTW, in 1991 many western fighters lacked IFF interrogator (F-16, F/A-18 Hornet), so it wasn't so bad.

 

So in other words, we should get this on RAZBAM's Mirage too? Would I be right in assuming this is what allows the F-15 to ID aircraft type it has locked up? (IE SU-27, KC-135 etc?)

[mvsgas]

There is a lot of info out there for NCTR, unfortunately, I don't understand most of it.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Non+cooperative+target+recognitions+site:.mil&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiX1IWUvozKAhVGzmMKHX7LDzQQgQMIGjAA

[jojo]

So in other words, we should get this on RAZBAM's Mirage too? Would I be right in assuming this is what allows the F-15 to ID aircraft type it has locked up? (IE SU-27, KC-135 etc?)

 

Yes, NCTR is featured on DCS F-15C. So I expect to see it on M-2000C too.

 

However, even if it's a hack in DCS, it has some limitation too. It depends on range, aspect angle (more or less face to face).

[GGTharos]

The limitations depend on how modern your nctr is. And it didn't all rest on engine microdoppler. In many cases the information is fused from multiple sources.