Where is the terrain self shadowing??

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

Hi guys!, first of all, I dont own the NTTR yet (I will get it soon), but there is something I have noticed from a lot of pictures made by comunity...there are no self shadows in terrain (the same as the caucasus map) but I can see many pictures (by ED specially) where they are clearly present. As I dont have the NTTR yet, I cant be sure if its a matter of graphics options but I dont think so as almost no one seems to post an screen where I can see them...examples:

 

Advertised screens WITH terrain shadows (mountains generate shadows in the ground):

 

Now what I really see in forums from people screens:

 

As you can see its NOT a matter of time of day so I selected pictures of sunset to make things even clearer and there are no shadows...So my question is...there is such a "feature" in DCS 2.0 and NTTR or we still missing something quite basic for todays graphics??

 

Thanks guys!!

Edited December 28, 2015 by watermanpc

[Chic]

It maybe just a matter of the Shadow Option selected. Many have toned down shadows for performance considerations.

[OnlyforDCS]

Also shadows do depend on the time of day. (ED have stated that with flat shadows ON there are 4 shadow lengths depending on the time of day) The type of shadows you will see in your fist pic will only appear very early in the day, or very late.

 

Im also not sure what you are getting at since in the pictures you have posted shadows are clearly visible. They are just not that long.

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

Alright guys, thanks for the replies...I have just find an specific notice about that matter in the EDGE feature list by ED:

 

What are the benefits to EDGE?

· EDGE allows for Direct X 11 support

· Dynamic shadowing of the terrain and mountains

· Clipmap support

· Higher object count

· Higher resolution ground terrain mesh

· More detailed tree models

· Better graphical effects

· High resolution road textures

· Ability for road signs and light signals

· Additional ground clutter (rocks, cactuses, etc.)

 

So I guess its clear that there should be present in the game.

 

 

It maybe just a matter of the Shadow Option selected. Many have toned down shadows for performance considerations.

 

Maybe but really, I cant find a SINGLE picture in the screenshots thread where terrain shadows are visible so...:music_whistling:

 

Also shadows do depend on the time of day. (ED have stated that with flat shadows ON there are 4 shadow lengths depending on the time of day) The type of shadows you will see in your fist pic will only appear very early in the day, or very late.

 

Im also not sure what you are getting at since in the pictures you have posted shadows are clearly visible. They are just not that long.

 

I think I didnt expres myself correctly, sorry, I meat that shadows obviously DEPEND of ToD of course and so I searched for pictures in sunset where shadows should be more noticeable due to the larger sun rays projection so if they arent working even in those pictures its very probable they arent working at all, that what I meant...

 

But also, I didnt know about the "4 shadow lengths"¿?¿?¿?...could you please tell me where they said that?...anyway I find it really weird if they made shadows to work that way because then they are not DYNAMIC as stated right???.

 

Also, I dont think thats the reason to not being able to find a single shot with actual terrain shadowing mate...if you look to the advertisment screens ToD is pretty similar to the one in the other pictures I posted and there are no shadows:huh:...also it would be really weird if shadow ONLY apear at an specific hour and dissapear at another right??

 

I think that the best way to find an answer to this would be if some of you guys make a test to see if they actually work :thumbup:

 

 

Many thanks!!

[NoJoe]

I did some testing, and the terrain shadows don't show up for me either. My guess is that they're just not yet implemented in the public alpha we have at the moment.

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

I did some testing, and the terrain shadows don't show up for me either. My guess is that they're just not yet implemented in the public alpha we have at the moment.

 

Great mate! thanks for the info, its what I suspected, sadly:(...I dont know how no one noticed/asked about that before...I would like this to be known by ED because I cant find an official statement about that. Its something I thik would be great for low level flight by running across the mountains shadows :music_whistling:

[rrohde]

Good catch!

 

Let's hope that this is a feature of the EDGE engine that hasn't been enabled yet, instead of something that has been abandoned by ED....

[Aeroscout]

I could be very wrong here, but this is what I believe is happening.

 

The terrain is actually NOT self shadowing. What's happening is terrain shadows are baked onto the terrain textures for various times of day, and are probably faded from one to the other as time passes. Go ahead and look at a road that passes through the shadow of a hill or mountain, ad you'll notice it's much brighter than it would be (bright as it is in the sun) as it is not affected by the terrain. Same for the cockpit. Fly behind a mountain, and you shouldn't notice anything change regarding cockpit lighting.

 

Personally, I don't think it's a big deal. Whether or not this constitutes false advertisement I'll leave for others to decide. I just wish ED was a bit more upfront about their methods. That said, I think I remember something being mentioned in one of Wag's Sunday videos, but I can't be bothered to find it right now.

[NoJoe]

I don't think it's false advertising; I think it's just an alpha. As in "may not contain all of the features that are planned for the final version."

 

I'd wait until Eagle Dynamics release the full version of DCS World 2.0 before worrying about false advertising.

[Art-J]

I recall Wags did talk "baked" terrain shadows in one of pre-release vids. They were supposed to work together with dynamic ones, just like hand-drawn textures with photo-textures we've got on NTTR now.

 

Maybe the dynamic ones have been turned off for the time being, as shadows seems to be the biggest performance killers at the moment.

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

Ok, I dont have an answer either as I dont even have the module yet but I would love to have an official answer from ED about all this if possible...do you guys know how to make ED concerned about this??...I meant maybe they dont come here to read forums, I dont know...

[BIGNEWY]

ED devs do read the forums, but are not always able to answer every query.

 

I do not have a definitive answer for you, other than to say this is an alpha build and things are changing all the time.

 

Why not purchase NTTR and experience it yourself?

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

ED devs do read the forums, but are not always able to answer every query.

 

I do not have a definitive answer for you, other than to say this is an alpha build and things are changing all the time.

 

Why not purchase NTTR and experience it yourself?

 

Ok, thanks for the reply!:thumbup:...i just wanted to make sure they know about that and so maybe they are able to tell us something regarding this matter...hope to see some news about this soon. Also, right now I cant afford the module, thats the only reason to not buying it already, hope to get it soon...

[Nate--IRL--]

The Shadowing of the terrain is indeed dynamic as stated, however the casting of shadows seems absent at present. This also may be an artistic decision, I don't know.

 

 

Nate

[rrohde]

That's not dynamic; that's baked onto the texture.

 

Dynamic self-shading would mean that everything causes real-time shadows, and is also subject to receive shadows from other objects that cause them. Dynamic shading also means that taller buildings may cast shadows on less tall buildings, and vehicles driving (or flying) through that tall building's shadow, are also in the same shade... etc.

 

"Supporting an unlimited number of objects receiving and casting shadows inside shadow range"

The initial screenshots in this thread show a combination of baked-on shadows *and* dynamic terrain shadows, and right now, in DCS 2.0.x Alpha, these dynamic terrain shadows seem to be missing.

 

Without those, it all looks a bit unnatural, but I really hope that this is because of the Alpha status of NTTR, even though this is a feature of the EDGE engine...

Edited December 29, 2015 by rrohde

[Nate--IRL--]

That's not dynamic; that's baked onto the texture.

 

Dynamic self-shading would mean that everything causes real-time shadows, and is also subject to receive shadows from other objects that cause them. Dynamic shading also means that taller buildings may cast shadows on less tall buildings, and vehicles driving (or flying) through that tall building's shadow, are also in the same shade... etc.

 

The initial screenshots in this thread show a combination of baked-on shadows *and* dynamic terrain shadows, and right now, in DCS 2.0.x Alpha, these dynamic terrain shadows seem to be missing.

 

Without those, it all looks a bit unnatural, but I really hope that this is because of the Alpha status of NTTR, even though this is a feature of the EDGE engine...

 

The Definition of "Dynamic" means it changes with time. It is not baked, it is calculated in real-time. That said, the casting of shadow onto secondary surfaces is not present in the above, but the shadows seen are indeed dynamic and not baked.

 

Nate

[rrohde]

I Agree - we then have dynamically generated terrain textures that mimic shadows based on time, but we still don't have what we saw in the initial screenshots as well as the announcement - "dynamically generated (actual) shadows".

[Nate--IRL--]

Here's a better example of the dynamic shadowing we have now.

 

iUUTqH2uhO8

 

BTW The shadow casting onto secondary surfaces was never real-time, as the above is. This may change if it does get implemented.

 

Nate

Edited December 29, 2015 by Nate--IRL--

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

The Shadowing of the terrain is indeed dynamic as stated, however the casting of shadows seems absent at present. This also may be an artistic decision, I don't know.

 

 

Nate

 

Honestly this doenst seems to me as real self shadowing...it looks like some "old fashoned" phong shadowing more than a proper shadow CASTING (real rays projection of the mountains shadows in the ground and in themselves)...the screens I posted in the first post CLEARLY shows a completely different kind of shadowing (real shadow casting) from the one we have now which is the one of your gif.

 

I hope its not an artistic decision as you said because I think it would be a great feature (even essential I may say for todays graphics) that would make great flying low and getting camouflaged through those shadows :smilewink: and its what they advertised...

 

That's not dynamic; that's baked onto the texture.

 

Dynamic self-shading would mean that everything causes real-time shadows, and is also subject to receive shadows from other objects that cause them. Dynamic shading also means that taller buildings may cast shadows on less tall buildings, and vehicles driving (or flying) through that tall building's shadow, are also in the same shade... etc.

 

"Supporting an unlimited number of objects receiving and casting shadows inside shadow range"

The initial screenshots in this thread show a combination of baked-on shadows *and* dynamic terrain shadows, and right now, in DCS 2.0.x Alpha, these dynamic terrain shadows seem to be missing.

 

Without those, it all looks a bit unnatural, but I really hope that this is because of the Alpha status of NTTR, even though this is a feature of the EDGE engine...

 

 

I could not have said it better...:thumbup:

[Pitot]

The Shadowing of the terrain is indeed dynamic as stated, however the casting of shadows seems absent at present. This also may be an artistic decision, I don't know.

 

 

Nate

 

What is dynamic here? Nothing. We see a decrease in amount of lightening, on a terrain (hard surface) where not even "normals" seem to be more than what 3dMax would put as default. We also see some pixel shading tricks, which are far from "awesome graphic engine solutions". Can "testers" please stop annoying us by showing how much you don't know zilch about how games work? No wonder we have gazillion new bugs in every new "stable release".

Edited December 29, 2015 by Pitot

[Nate--IRL--]

Honestly this doenst seems to me as real self shadowing..

 

That's correct, there is no shadows being cast onto secondary surfaces (i.e. self shadowing) in the example above. The Current Difference between the Black Sea Map and Nevada, is that the Shadowing that is drawn on the terrain is now Dynamic over time.

 

Nate

Edited December 29, 2015 by Nate--IRL--

[Nate--IRL--]

What is dynamic here? Nothing. We see a decrease in amount of lightening, on a terrain (hard surface) where not even "normals" seem to be more than what 3dMax would put as default. We also see some pixel shading tricks, which are far from "awesome graphic engine solutions".

 

Does this illustrate the dynamic part better? Nice edit to your post BTW :P .

 

iUUTqH2uhO8

 

Nate

[rrohde]

We're still comparing apples to oranges here, though: dynamically changing textures vs. actual self-shading terrain.

 

Here's also a tidbit from Wags regarding NTTR:

"One of the biggest is getting the colors and shadows correct. Although the colors and shadows may have looked good in the terrainviewer tool, the way light and shadows are done in DCS World 2 is quite different. As such, we've been having to do a lot of work to get these to look right."

 

So maybe ED is still tweaking how EDGE does things in 2.0.x, and there's still more to come in terms of terrain self-shading down the line... :)

 

EDIT: And maybe the initial images shown in this thread were taken from aforementioned terrainviewer? Dunno...

Edited December 29, 2015 by rrohde

[Nate--IRL--]

We're still comparing apples to oranges here, though: dynamically changing textures vs. actual self-shading terrain.

 

I agree - but it satisfies "Dynamic shadowing of the terrain and mountains" as is. I am not for one second saying that Shadow/Ray Casting won't return however.

 

Nate

[NoJoe]

Thanks for posting those timelapses Nate, those are great!