[REPORTED] Model Visibility Issues

[chihirobelmo]

You're supposed to use the zoom view in these flight sims, constantly varying your FOV in order to have both peripheral and detailed vision. Not understanding this important view control is a big reason why some players have difficulty with visibility.

 

I have already understand we need FOV slider in order to get RL visibility.

I even discribed why current - or even future high res monitor will still needs fOV slider again and again. There is no difference of opinion between us here.

 

What I up for is that I need the sim to get RL visibility even in realistic wide FOV. Your opinion is that abusing FOV slider is enough. Here is the opinion difference. Well its OK cos its already a value jujdgement points. I only able to say I want to, You can say you don't. But I needed to correct mistakes while there were so many misunderstanding about SmartScaling in terms of what is true.

Edited October 13, 2016 by chihirobelmo

[SharpeXB]

Either Model Enlargement or Smart Scaling will both have the same problem. Since they are player adjustable settings to make other objects more visible and since due to hardware differences it's impossible for players to have an agreement on what's "realistic", all the populated servers will just have it switched off.

[chihirobelmo]

Thats also true for color/contrasts improvements.

I saw IL-2BOS players who reduces there gamma to gain more visibility at there forum.

Correct monitor calibration is also needed if we want to see RL color/contrast view even sim achieved it with the new graphics engine.

IL-2 have forced visual effects to keep display distant aircraft as a dot, and hardcore players have tweaked there hardware/in-game settings -how much AA do we need? whether HDR on or off?- to gain additional visibility.

 

FOV slider is also player adjustable. Without calculating what will be the 1:1 view in-game FOV with your monitor size and head position, we can easily zoom and see the aircraft larger than what was expected in RL same situation.

http://carsfov.moritzlawitschka.de/

 

Of course SmartScaling will also be "easier to see than RL" thing when we close our head to the monitor than what was expected, or by narrowing FOV to look for other aircraft with the option enabled.

Edited October 13, 2016 by chihirobelmo

[chihirobelmo]

I guess SmartScaling can be easily tweaked its magnification factor depends on in-game resolution settings. Count Number of pixels against original research done by 1600x1200 projector, and limit its maximum magnification factor.

 

EDIT: I wrote further description at bmsforum

Edited October 13, 2016 by chihirobelmo

[SharpeXB]

The zoom view isn't an advantage because it's equally available to every player. You're also trading one advantage for another, FOV vs detail. Since your monitor has a fixed number of pixels, zooming in is the only way to simulate 20/20 vision. Unlike Model Enlargement, the zoom view doesn't allow you to see things at unrealistic distances, the farthest away you can spot another aircraft with that is about 10 miles and only with difficulty. By comparison the large setting for Model Enlargement lets you see targets from crazy distances 20+ miles. It replaces the radar or target cameras on the modern aircraft. That's why it's forced off online.

[chihirobelmo]

No, I was never talking about advantage vs another player. I was talking about advantage against RL.

Zooming view can make things see much larger than what will be expected in RL if you never consider your monitor FOV.

Edited October 13, 2016 by chihirobelmo

[SharpeXB]

It's not just a question of size but also resolution. Your real eyesight is far better than any monitor. Making the image bigger is the only way for the game to simulate that. The best example we can all relate to is driving a car, since we aren't all fighter pilots. If there was a road sign in the game down the taxiway, could you read it on your screen the same way you can driving your car? No. not unless you zoom in on it.

Oculus just published something where they mentioned 20/20 eyesight is 120 pixels per degree. So if my math is correct, a 1920 pixel wide screen would require you to zoom in to 1920/120= a 16 degree FOV in order to simulate real visual acuity.

[Decibel dB]

If there was a road sign in the game down the taxiway, could you read it on your screen the same way you can driving your car? No. not unless you zoom in on it.

 

But we can see the sign, we don't loose it, we're not asking to be able the read on the tail marking. I can't finger point at what is the problem but the spoting and keeping track of the plane is deficient.

[chihirobelmo]

It's not just a question of size but also resolution. Your real eyesight is far better than any monitor. Making the image bigger is the only way for the game to simulate that. The best example we can all relate to is driving a car, since we aren't all fighter pilots. If there was a road sign in the game down the taxiway, could you read it on your screen the same way you can driving your car? No. not unless you zoom in on it.

Oculus just published something where they mentioned 20/20 eyesight is 120 pixels per degree. So if my math is correct, a 1920 pixel wide screen would require you to zoom in to 1920/120= a 16 degree FOV in order to simulate real visual acuity.

 

Thanks, I didn't have such a point of view. It might be a disadvantage of the sim against RL. Like in situation where pilots has been required visual identification(even the modern jet fighter pilots also have an opportunity to do so). Especially if opponent force uses same fighter plane(ex:Israeli F-16 vs Egyptian F-16), or if one of allied force has same fighter plane opponent uses(ex:Kosovo war). We need to see there coloring and nation mark to identify them.

 

In BMS, I may can use FOV slider or "Look Closer" callback(Decrease 20 FOV, backs to default fov when pressed again) for VID especially in Israel theater. I will use it only for a moment and back to default fov(while I enable Smart Scaling) as it will increase possibility of my tracking ability than in RL.

 

In DCS, I may can set middle point of Warthog Slider(has a notch) as an ideal 1:1 view FOV, far most afterwards position to realistic wide FOV(until there will be a smart scaling in 2.5 I wish), and far most forward position to max FOV for a momentary VID.

Edited October 14, 2016 by chihirobelmo

[Solty]

It's not just a question of size but also resolution. Your real eyesight is far better than any monitor. Making the image bigger is the only way for the game to simulate that. The best example we can all relate to is driving a car, since we aren't all fighter pilots. If there was a road sign in the game down the taxiway, could you read it on your screen the same way you can driving your car? No. not unless you zoom in on it.

Oculus just published something where they mentioned 20/20 eyesight is 120 pixels per degree. So if my math is correct, a 1920 pixel wide screen would require you to zoom in to 1920/120= a 16 degree FOV in order to simulate real visual acuity.

 

With every post you prove you do not know you are talking about. Smart scaling and other methods and derivatives take resolution into consideration. Play some other games than dcs.

 

Furthermore, you cannot simulate real life vision on a monitor screen. You cannot. It is a 2D plain even if it shows a 3D world, so your eye will never react to it as it does in real life. That is why model scaling is so important.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Solty

[chihirobelmo]

Still not sure if his math is correct, if RL pilots need to identify nation mark from a distance where resolution has to be taken in consideration in sims, but I am sure that Original idea of Smart Scaling is to consider enough magnification to get enough target outline. So might be not enough where visual identification of nation mark or coloring is needed due to screen ppi. Same can be said for zooming hFOV until it matches screen. Those methods only matches aircraft drawn size in angular mil to RL, and make outline visible if the monitor has UXGA pixel size or more.

Edited October 14, 2016 by chihirobelmo

[SharpeXB]

Furthermore, you cannot simulate real life vision on a monitor screen.

Of course you can't. Even if your monitor was life sized, the resolution is about 1/10th of what your real vision is.

 

Play some other games than dcs.

I do. All the sims have a zoom view for the same reason, even shooters like ARMA. Only one game uses Smart Scaling afaik. Falcon.

 

Still not sure if his math is correct

Math is coming from here.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/abrash-oculus-connect-3-predictions,32810.html

20/20 eyesight is a universal requirement to be a real world fighter pilot so it only makes sense for the game to give you the same ability.

Edited October 14, 2016 by SharpeXB

[iLOVEwindmills]

You're supposed to use the zoom view in these flight sims, constantly varying your FOV in order to have both peripheral and detailed vision. Not understanding this important view control is a big reason why some players have difficulty with visibility.

 

I find it hard to even argue with this, with how utterly impractical and unrealistic such a way of flying is.

 

Zooming is supposed to allow you to investigate something you already spotted, to get a closer look at a dot or investigate a ground objective. Since contacts at even 2/3nm can be impossibly obscure to spot, how are you even supposed to know where to zoom? Certainly you don't actually scan while zoomed and consider that an acceptable way of how things work?

[Solty]

VBS 3

 

Same is done in Il2 46 and War Thunder. Depending on distance and the model itself the model or a dot replaces it, allows for better and more natural spoting without straining the eyes.

 

Zoom, is and always was present, years ago. In old games such as Jane's WW2 Fighters, IL2 etc.

 

Both zoom and object scaling were always part of the experience. You just assumed that it was different, without fact checking, and now you are trying to hold on to your belief.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Solty

[SharpeXB]

Same is done in Il2 46 and War Thunder. Depending on distance and the model itself the model or a dot replaces it, allows for better and more natural spoting without straining the eyes.

It's semantics, but dots or sprites aren't the same thing as scaling. Neither is Model Enlargement.

It's possible IL-2 Bo* uses some form of sprite but the effect is so subtle it's hard to tell. And it's not player adjustable.

[Reflected]

Since the last update it's not working for me either... :(

[wilbur81]

distant object visibility: bug?

 

Anyone able to speak to the visibility of planes, missiles, etc. in the distance with 1.5.5? From 25+ miles away, I can see dots of all aircraft around that distance... and if I fire a missile, that missile ends up (at distance) being just as visible as the aircraft I've shot at. I like being able to see distant objects more clearly, but not sure if this is intended or not as I have model enlargement "off" and pixel density at 1.0. The distant objects also seem to be visible through the clouds.

[razo+r]

if it is in multiplayer, then it will use the settings from the server, not from you

[wilbur81]

I wasn't playing in multiplayer. Here's a screenshot:

[ATTACH]151344[/ATTACH]

 

I didn't have this kind of visibility before 1.5.5. Again, model enlargement is off.

Edited November 10, 2016 by wilbur81

[PreussLee]

Same here...no chance of spotting enemies in vr atm...

[Neldrion]

Version 1.5.4 / Single Player SU-25T Campaign Georgian Oil War

 

Tested model enlargement in VR in all settings (small, medium, larger) It does not work.

 

However sometimes from far distances >25km I can see something around the targets that looks like a big blob / shadow thing. But then when I zoom in or get closer the targets are just regular targets without model enlargement.

 

Maybe model enlargement is bugged on near distances. Or maybe it is normal behavior, I have not tested it before Version 1.5.4.

[wilbur81]

Through the clouds

 

Here's another example... this time distant objects seen through clouds.

 

[ATTACH]151345[/ATTACH]

[Esac_mirmidon]

This change in visibility is a lot better than the impostor system we have in 1.5.4 but, YES, need some tunning and one of the things is for missiles. You can see them very far away at the same distance you are able to see aircrafts.

 

It´s not perfect, it needs more tuning but is a step on the right direction. Maybe the distance is too large, you can spot the dots very far away, but now in 1.5.5 the transition between the dots and the aircraft LOD is perfect, not more strange effects, artifacts because the impostors, blur shadows and distance where the contacts disapears.

 

I like it a lot and i´m only waiting for the final tunning.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Esac_mirmidon

[wilbur81]

Agreed... I like the changes, just wondering if i was imagining things. :-)

[Bullitthead]

Has anyone seen any difference in spotting while using Oculus Rift in 1.5.5?