[REPORTED] Model Visibility Issues

[Redacuragsr]

I seem to have targets disappearing on me at about 2km when I am behind them, I see the aircraft popping flares but don't see the aircraft sometimes, in the Oculus in the same situation I can spot the aircraft easier....at least that's what it seems like to me. Its unfortunate that the model enlargement options don't work anymore, its a nice option to have considering people have different screen sizes, resolution, and eye sight. Its also nice to be able to practice your SA with this option, I know you could do it with labels, but that's more of an immersion breaker than the over sized model enlargement. I want the model enlargement option back and hope that its not permanently gone.

[iLOVEwindmills]

According to USAF research paper (I'll dig it up when/if I have the time), you shouldn't be expecting to spot a large fighter outside of 7nm during a visual search.

 

You may be able to see one further away if you know exactly where to look and the conditions are right.

 

Although these are just anecdotes, during the 'splash two' shoot-down of two MiG-29's, the pilot said he only picked them up visually when they were pointed out by the TD boxes in the HuD around 7-8nm.

In earlier times, pilots in Phantoms reported losing sight of MiG-21's 2nm away when they'd be tail-on or head-on, and picked them up again when they were turning.

 

Well it certainly is not easy to spot the dot, it is very small and depending on contrast it can be very unlikely that you see it.

 

Usually you need to have a pretty decent idea of where an enemy is when he is some distance away in order to spot the dot.

 

In that regard it seems to be relatively accurate, though it does cause some eyestrain to keep eyes on a contact in order to keep tracking it.

[TwojaStara]

Any updates on this? It makes DCS basically unplayable. I tested - no matter how I set the model enlargement in the main options menu, it's OFF in game.

+1

[Johnny Dioxin]

Was on a server with Edd yesterday and we both had no issues at all spotting air targets and each other from a distance.

 

Ground targets were, however, another matter and only spotted when it was so close that it was too late to avoid getting splatted.

[klem]

Forgive me for not re-reading all of this thread so the answer may be buried in here somewhere but as there has been an update here's my current understanding of it. Please put me right if I misunderstand:-

1. Terminology. The 'Model' is not an 'icon'/'imposter', it is the set of the usual LODs

2. 'Icons'/'imposters' are the 'dots' that change size according to the (badly named?) 'Model enlargement' setting even if they are tiny crude a/c shapes but by that stage they are just a handful of pixels.

3. We can argue all day about distant visibility when the dot size argument kicks in but there are professionsl estimates on this, typically 6 to 10 nm.

4. My main concern is the WVR modelling where even a Red Arrow Hawk loses definition and color at ridiculously short distances. I think that is what needs addressing, not necessarily size.

[NineLine]

Its all a WIP, they have other things coming that will help.

[Why485]

Forgive me for not re-reading all of this thread so the answer may be buried in here somewhere but as there has been an update here's my current understanding of it. Please put me right if I misunderstand:-

1. Terminology. The 'Model' is not an 'icon'/'imposter', it is the set of the usual LODs

2. 'Icons'/'imposters' are the 'dots' that change size according to the (badly named?) 'Model enlargement' setting even if they are tiny crude a/c shapes but by that stage they are just a handful of pixels.

3. We can argue all day about distant visibility when the dot size argument kicks in but there are professionsl estimates on this, typically 6 to 10 nm.

4. My main concern is the WVR modelling where even a Red Arrow Hawk loses definition and color at ridiculously short distances. I think that is what needs addressing, not necessarily size.

 

The only thing you're wrong about is number 2. From 1.5.0 to 1.5.4, they were not simple dots, they were in fact small sprites that were fairly accurate representations of the model from the appropriate aspect and lighting. However, that whole system is irrelevant now as it's been completely removed from the game and the model visibility setting in options no longer does anything.

 

What appears to have replaced that system is instead an extremely simple 1 pixel dot that draws whenever an aircraft is in sight. As far as I can tell, there's nothing else going on, and I'm not sure if there's a max range for that dot either. In some of my testing cases (using labels to tell range) they've appeared very faintly at 10 miles (which is good), but sometimes they seem to appear further away.

[Reflected]

True that, planes at 2 miles also just vanish in game now :(

[klem]

The only thing you're wrong about is number 2. From 1.5.0 to 1.5.4, they were not simple dots, they were in fact small sprites that were fairly accurate representations of the model from the appropriate aspect and lighting. However, that whole system is irrelevant now as it's been completely removed from the game and the model visibility setting in options no longer does anything.

 

What appears to have replaced that system is instead an extremely simple 1 pixel dot that draws whenever an aircraft is in sight. As far as I can tell, there's nothing else going on, and I'm not sure if there's a max range for that dot either. In some of my testing cases (using labels to tell range) they've appeared very faintly at 10 miles (which is good), but sometimes they seem to appear further away.

 

I don't see that in any of the 1.5 change logs, just the introduction of the settings in the original 1.5 update.

[klem]

Its all a WIP, they have other things coming that will help.

:thumbup:

[Why485]

I don't see that in any of the 1.5 change logs, just the introduction of the settings in the original 1.5 update.

 

Yeah it'd be nice if ED would include game changing updates to DCS in their patch notes, but they often dont. Their patch notes have always been incomplete

[chihirobelmo]

I really glad to hear ED starts to improve there Visibility system:)

Sounds like its similar to IL-2 method(no configurable, small dots)but I have to wait and see what will happen in future updates...

[TwojaStara]

I have question , even since openbeta 1.5.5 I've nearly lost visibility that i used to have even with Model Enlargement . I've done simple test to in order to verify (all on the same Model Enlargement):

a) playing on MiG-21 with 2560x1440 with 8x anisotropic filtering - nearly unable to spot anything

b) playing on MiG-21 with 2560x1440 with NO anisotropic filtering

c) playing on MiG-21 with 1280x1024 (on 28" ! yay!!) with NO anisotropic filtering - able to spot everything from miles away

 

Please tell me, how we are about to play fair in multiplayer if two players even on same hardware have completley different situation awareness? (one can see everything the other cannot see anything). Before 1.5.5 it was NOT so bad ... was there some silent change not mentioned in change log? can i customize it?

[klem]

I have question , even since openbeta 1.5.5 I've nearly lost visibility that i used to have even with Model Enlargement . I've done simple test to in order to verify (all on the same Model Enlargement):

a) playing on MiG-21 with 2560x1440 with 8x anisotropic filtering - nearly unable to spot anything

b) playing on MiG-21 with 2560x1440 with NO anisotropic filtering

c) playing on MiG-21 with 1280x1024 (on 28" ! yay!!) with NO anisotropic filtering - able to spot everything from miles away

 

Please tell me, how we are about to play fair in multiplayer if two players even on same hardware have completley different situation awareness? (one can see everything the other cannot see anything). Before 1.5.5 it was NOT so bad ... was there some silent change not mentioned in change log? can i customize it?

 

This has been one of the themes in this and many other threads. You can 'cheat' like that if you want. Hopefully ED can find a solution.

[Reflected]

I bought the F5E yesterday. It's an amazing plane, but completely and utterly useless, because I can't see anything. In SP I use the map, and when the bogey is literally next to me at the same alt, even then I cannot see anything. Fingers crossed for a very, very urgent fix. I didn't buy the plane so I can start it up and do circuits.

[Why485]

The entire impostor and model enlargement system was removed in 1.5.5. The settings in the options menu, and the settings you see on server options don't do anything anymore. It's instead been replaced by 1 pixel dots.

 

No, there's a completely different system in place now. I'm still unclear if it does anything within visual range, but it does draw a 1 pixel dot once the plane gets sufficiently small. Turning on anti-aliasing seems to make the dot a little easier to see (spreading it out slightly into a few more pixels), as without AA it seems as if the dot is literally just 1 pixel. Depending on your resolution and screen size, a single pixel can be uselessly difficult to see, or somewhat easy to see.

 

4X AA

 

No AA

 

What is worrying though, is that sometimes with no AA you can have situations where a dot disappears. If you move the camera around it can sometimes look like it's flickering, and in some frames it can sometimes just disappear altogether. This isn't really an issue with 4X AA and above.

 

Maybe that's intended and the flickering is supposed to simulate glare of some kind? I don't know. I will say though that it's easier to see targets at a distance when AA is on.

 

As for WVR, it feels like it's easier to see planes WVR, but I'm having a hard time telling if that's truly the case or not. At this point I'm kind of leaning towards it not doing anything at all WVR, but again it's hard for me to definitely say anything. There's nothing I've been able to find to turn off or tweak so that I can compare or break down the system to figure out how it works. The only things I can definitively say is that this new system cannot be turned off, it draws dots once planes are sufficiently small, and it is not configurable in the settings menu.

 

I could have sworn that WVR it worked better in the openbeta, to the point where I was wondering if they had actually implemented some kind of very subtle scaling (which is the best kind!), but on the stable release, it seems slightly worse. I have to again add the disclaimer that I have no hard proof either way to support those claims.

 

If it sounds like I'm doing a lot of guessing, it's because I am. I'm having a hard time breaking this down due to the lack of anything to configure. It could be as dead simple as a dot, or maybe there's something more complex going on. I just don't know. ED doesn't ever say anything on the subject. This was a pretty dramatic change to the sim and it wasn't even mentioned in the patch notes. It would be great if ED would explain what is going on or at least tell us what their plans are.

 

As iLOVEwindmills already said, if that was intentional, or if maybe this is a partial form of some future system, we just don't know. ED didn't tell anybody that they changed anything this patch. The most optimistic thing I can say about the situation is that 2.5 will likely bring another big change to visibility as we're getting a whole new lighting system that in screenshots already seems to have more contrast than the current game. There's also some weird glinting in the latest NTTR trailer (which was rendered in the new 2.5 engine) that may hint at canopy/airframe glinting for 2.5. Or it could just be a bug.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Why485

[TBear]

Just installed new GTX 1080...put all video options to max..absolutely impossible to spot anything !!!!!!!!

WVR Air combat is a pain :huh::huh:

[klem]

I bought the F5E yesterday. It's an amazing plane, but completely and utterly useless, because I can't see anything. In SP I use the map, and when the bogey is literally next to me at the same alt, even then I cannot see anything. Fingers crossed for a very, very urgent fix. I didn't buy the plane so I can start it up and do circuits.

 

Just installed new GTX 1080...put all video options to max..absolutely impossible to spot anything !!!!!!!!

WVR Air combat is a pain :huh::huh:

 

It's not the planes, it's not the GPU, it's graphics actualies versus the RL MkI eyeball of which much has been posted. Even a 1080 can't conjour up what isn't there.

 

Ever hopeful that ED can up with a balanced solution.

[chihirobelmo]

Like F-15 has a length of 19m, when seen from its side its angular mil would be

19[m]/3.704[km]=6.18[mil]

 

Try draw 6 millimeter silhouette of F-15 side orientation on a paper, and look at the paper from 1 meter distance. or try 1.8 millimeter silhouette from 30 centimeter distance. This silhouette would be as same size as to RL F-15 seen from its side 2nm distance(6mil). F-16 and F-5E has length of 15m/14m so they might be seen 3/4 size to F-15.

 

In DCS, Abreast formation F-15 seen from 2nm Distance will become a dot when FOV is set to around 70 if you use FullHD resolution monitor. A middle place of Zoom Axis is 70hFOV if you never edited view.lua. 1dots on 72dpi monitor would be 0.35 millimeter, 1920*1080 monitor with 30 inches diagonal will have 72dpi. To look a dot in 6mil you have to close your head to the monitor to 6[mil]/0.000035[m]=5.83E-6[km] which is 5.83 millimeter.

 

This is difference between simulator and RealLife. Updating GPU, buy higher resolution display, and you may see F-15 as a silhouette this time, but its still smaller than the dot which was seen in FullHD monitor. Only solution to tally bandits in current DCS with Realistic probability is still simply ZOOMING FOV.

 

As it is said that current dot system is just WIP thing, I am just waiting to see what will be implemented to 2.5

Edited December 1, 2016 by chihirobelmo

[TBear]

I just hope they can equal the spotting systems available both in CloD and BoS that seem to quite realistic and "WVR friendly" :smilewink:

[chihirobelmo]

DCS already uses similar Visibility system to CloD/BoS in current version(1.5.5), But somewhere distance planes transit from dots to model, it become really hard to detect.

In addition, even drawing dots are too small to represent 1.5-3nm plane visibility as I described above.

CloD has sharper dots then BoS and easier to spot distant planes. (When I say CloD I meen TF4.3) But it was also same for previous DCS with imposter system.

 

Perhaps make dots more sharp image so that we can tally in realistic probability is one way.

However adjusting "Tally Probability" by tuning Contrast/color of dots, and make it also relative to target aircraft size/orientation(is needed for RL combat as it changes relate to them) would be much much harder job.

Well, I would like to suggest that there is already one another simple, reliable method which ensures visibility adjustment without tuning color fadeout for each aircraft/orientation.

Edited December 1, 2016 by chihirobelmo

[NineLine]

Guys, keep the discussion on DCS. It doesn't matter what is happening in other games.

[klem]

Like F-15 has a length of 19m, when seen from its side its angular mil would be

19[m]/3.704[km]=6.18[mil]

 

Try draw 6 millimeter silhouette of F-15 side orientation on a paper, and look at the paper from 1 meter distance. or try 1.8 millimeter silhouette from 30 centimeter distance. This silhouette would be as same size as to RL F-15 seen from its side 2nm distance(6mil). F-16 and F-5E has length of 15m/14m so they might be seen 3/4 size to F-15.

 

In DCS, Abreast formation F-15 seen from 2nm Distance will become a dot when FOV is set to around 70 if you use FullHD resolution monitor. A middle place of Zoom Axis is 70hFOV if you never edited view.lua. 1dots on 72dpi monitor would be 0.35 millimeter, 1920*1080 monitor with 30 inches diagonal will have 72dpi. To look a dot in 6mil you have to close your head to the monitor to 6[mil]/0.000035[m]=5.83E-6[km] which is 5.83 millimeter.

 

This is difference between simulator and RealLife. Updating GPU, buy higher resolution display, and you may see F-15 as a silhouette this time, but its still smaller than the dot which was seen in FullHD monitor. Only solution to tally bandits in current DCS with Realistic probability is still simply ZOOMING FOV.

 

As it is said that current dot system is just WIP thing, I am just waiting to see what will be implemented to 2.5

 

At 2nm an F-15C should not be a dot. It's hard to be absolutely accurate but I have a triple screen setup with zoom set to represent the size of the cockpit - I feel as if I am in the correctly sized F-15C cockpit of about 37.5" wide as measured across my screens. In other words the world is about the 'correct size'. In snapviews.lua at F-15C option [13] 'default view' is it viewangle = 69.5. To my right is an F-15C at 2nm. At my screen viewing distance of 70cm it should be 0.7 * 6.18 = 4.326mm. It actually measures about 3.5mm on screen or about 80% of what it should be. Or put another way, my 27" 1920 x 1080 monitors are about 80dpi (23.5") or 3.2dpmm (600mm wide). At 2nm it should be 4.326*3.2= 13.8 dots/pixels. It is 10 pixels or 70% of what it should be. Either way it's too small.

[chihirobelmo]

Sorry, okay let's only talk about methods. Not sim comparison.

 

At 2nm an F-15C should not be a dot. It's hard to be absolutely accurate but I have a triple screen setup with zoom set to represent the size of the cockpit - I feel as if I am in the correctly sized F-15C cockpit of about 37.5" wide as measured across my screens. In other words the world is about the 'correct size'.

 

In that case, your each 1920x1080 monitor has 1/3 FOV to current FOV setting. For example:If you set current FOV to 70, you should think this way - Each 1920*1080 monitor is displaying 23.3 hFOV view. or equal to single 5760*1080 monitor is displaying 70hFOV. In my case, I was talking about when single 1920*1080 monitor displays 70hFOV view, 2nm F-15 from its side will be "a dot".

 

Actually I just launched DCS2.0 and found "2nm F-15 will be a dot" was overstatement, sorry again, at least even 2.1nm abreast F-15 drawn in few pixels on a single 1920*1080 monitor 70hFOV.

 

If you have "World is about the Correct size" FOV, you should see correct size F-15. Have you moved FOV axis slightly after you start the mission? DCS sets fov slightly larger than default setting when mission starts.

Edited December 2, 2016 by chihirobelmo

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

^^nothing changed with today's patch.

 

i dont know, but i really disliked the imposters of earlier patches. these sprites were not an addition to the 3d model, but they simply exchanged the 3d model with the sprite. and not even in sync. so it was common that at a certain distance, nothing at all was rendered. which was horrible. furthermore, the imposters looked rather bad imho. setting them to large gave ridiculous results at far distances, where in fact i thought contacts where clouds :) .

so personally im really against the imposter system, at least as we saw it implemented..not comparing sims is really hard, as others actually manage to give reasonable and convincing results. still i will try not to do it, and just state, that sharpness and contrast should, in my view, be increased as contacts get closer. and a subtle not overdone smart scaling is a perfect working solution in flight sims, proven over many years.